Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Baron Saturday on August 22, 2014, 10:56:27 am
-
So i fly a Junker. Always have, slways will. The new flamer changes have changed the game however. Where i had my gat gunner take greased rounds before, i have them taking incendiary and where i had a merc up front i take a flamer. My entire Paritan rumble strst went from front cara, gat/flak broadside, to flamer front cara/flamer broadside. When engagements are made with flamer gst/flak build i actually aim for trifecta. Fire damage has gotten totally out of hand and i'm not sure how it needs to be changed, but fire is meta and everything else is support... I don't even want to discuss the chem spray right now either. 5 seconds of hoping against hope and i almost feel like the ext is better.
-
Incendiary is gatling guns were actually pretty common even before fire changes.
And, sorry but... gat/flak is not an optimal build.
-
Not optimal how? We regularly go 5-0 with it. Flaks not only assist gats in armor damage, but are great for hull damageas well. I can show you how effective it is tontight if you'd like.
-
Chem spray is the best provided the engineers chem before it's needed. If you are being flamed it is too late. In which case fire extinguisher is better.
But during prolonged exposure to fire fire extinguisher cannot cope. As this fire stacks will come back. So Basically if engineers forget to chem and you are under prolonged fire. Extinguish and then chem.
Mercury up front on a Junker is pretty cool. Makes the ship super tiny to hit whilst you have a gun pointed at them.
My favourite Junker builds are as follows though:
Front Artemis, Left side double hades, right side, carronade gattling.
Front Artemis, Bottom deck dual mine, top left Gatling, top right carronade.
Front Banshee, right carronade flamer, left side dual mine
But maaan Junker is such a versatile ship. You can design it to have each side for different jobs. It's awesome.
It's like having 2 pyramidions stuck to each side.
Without the nose.
Or the pyramidion.
That's what i think anyways.
Not optimal how? We regularly go 5-0 with it. Flaks not only assist gats in armor damage, but are great for hull damageas well. I can show you how effective it is tontight if you'd like.
It isn't optimal as the flak has an arming time. Which means that the gat is often out of range. Mortar is a better pairing.
Provided you want to be a Metamidion Scrub.
-
Not optimal how? We regularly go 5-0 with it. Flaks not only assist gats in armor damage, but are great for hull damageas well. I can show you how effective it is tontight if you'd like.
Oh boy, your challenge is accepted with much anticipation.
You may go 5-0 is novice or pub matches, but that build will be ripped to shreds by anyone who know what they're doing. The arming time on a flak makes it a sub-optimal pairing with the range of a gat. Yes, a flak does amazing once armor is down, but does very little while it's up. Pair the flak with a hades for mid to long range shots, pair the gat with mortars for short range.
-
Why no gat flak?
Gat 450m range, even less when using incendiary.
Flak 150m arming range. Can be decreased to maybe 120 ...
You will get shred to pieces by any crew that has experience.
Your flamer will run into chem sprays and your guns will either be out of range (gat) or inside arming (flak).
Also wouldnt suggest using incendiary. Its a nice third ammo for a gat maybe if you doesnt have anything else to take but usually id say its crap.
There is no reason for it on a gat if youre running a standard gat mortar cause greased will do the hullshred faster and saver and thats all purpose of the gat.
In a disable setup your better suited with heavy for the gat to be able to effectivly snipe components.
There is simply no reason for incendiary atm. Maybe in a light arm deacrease for mines bout outside i wouldnt suggest it for anything.
And like replacable said ...
A junkers strenght is versatility. You have either a longrange and closerange side or you have a disable and a killside.
Mirrored junkers arent worth it. Theres simply no reason to do that.
And like every ship you have to rely on allies at a certain lvl. A junker has a big juicy balloon as target. If you dont know and dont trust your ally in those situations your most likely screwed. Atleast if the enemy knows what he is doing.
-
Truth be told I see Junkers much rarer than I saw them half a year ago.
-
Then why is the pyra meta gat/flak? It's the exact same principle exactly. I see pyras run gat flak every day and it's very effective. It's been so for us, but then again i have a pro level gamer in my main crew. We'll see how it goes.
-
Then why is the pyra meta gat/flak?
It isn't. It is gat/mortar. A pyra that uses the flak usually has it coupled with a hades to get the full range advantage of the light flak, since flak is better than mortar at range. When you use a gatling, you might as well bring a mortar since you will be rather close to the enemy and you won't have to worry about arming time either if the enemy can manage to get close. Enemies usually will get close to you if you are a junker, since junkers cannot move sideways to back up while shooting whereas ships like pyramidion and goldfish can. What you could do however is dodge by turning and moving past them while keeping side guns in arc, and when you are this you will be so close that mortar is better than flak.
Of course you can continue using this combination, but you have a much more restricted range game which does make it a bit harder to play with.
-
Alright. I'm gonna go gat mortar mirrored. I'm still curious as to why mirrored is bad. Two kill sides are good especiallywhen you have a sopport squid making a firey mess of things.
I'm still in complete disagreement with the incendiary rounds for gat however. I think it depends on how it's used and what it's coupled with. There's a reason it's in the game and we're seeing good things using it. So until that changes our gat gunner is using them. It's all situational though, and ammo does change between clips quite often.
Edit: And for chem spray, i understand what it's used for. I'm not saying don't take it. What I'm saying is it seems betterto have a engi with chem spray OR ext, and an engi with the other.
-
Decent crew keep up chem spray cycles making the incendiary effect useless leaving you with reduced dps and range, the advantage of the Junker is that it has enough gun slots to fight at different ranges symmetrical builds only limit you.
-
Ps,
meta Junker build is Hades lower art top one side, art front for trifecta, mortar top Gatling bottom on the other side.
-
If you opponents are being stupid it is not that hard to 5-0 even with sub optimal builds. Gat/flack used to be the meta before muse added arming times to the flack. In fact some of still say "gat/flack" and "flack timings" even though we mean mortar.
The Junker is a fine ship, and is very versatile. I still run a tripple artemis left/fron for long range and a gat/morter right for close as my default setup. It is a very strong counter to squids due to its tiny blind side. It can hold its own in sniper matches with mass Artemis spam and a very hard to hit hull. It is slightly out matched due to the lack of perma hull against a brawler pyramiddion, but superior crew or flying can still carry the day. It is maneuverable enough that it can get the upper hand on a galleon in tight quarters.
The main weakness is the balloon a well piloted blenderfish can lock a junker down or keep it out of the fight. If you face a luberjack gunner knows what they are doing, the junker becomes easy meat.
I would not limit myself to one ship. Understanding how the other ships fly will help you compliment your ally and exploit your enemies' weaknesses.
-
A Gatling mortar side of a Junker has advantage over a metamidion, the Junkers higher armour start means the pyra should break and die first (in theory, not counting for crew error)
-
Well, this is true. While i main a junker i also fly a pyra and a spire. Pyra runs a similar build for a different reason and i use a spire for long range support. And it looks cool and thats enough reason to get me into a spire anyway. I wanted to main a spire, but it's a glsss cannon and it specializes and i want to brawl and do range, but it depends on the map. I have 3 builds. Flamer front, gat/(now)mortar flamer/cara or flamer front mirrored gst/mortar or flamer front mirrored cara/flamer. I prefer double kill sides because i like running with popper/flamer squid or some other support ship.
-
Well poo. You guys got me thinking now. I may run the same mirrored build for mid range maps, go cara/flamer gat/mortar close and go gat/mortat art/hades merc front long range maps. Testing testing testing.
-
Gat morter brawls are a very tight run thing. I could argue that the closeness of the pyra's hull to the helm and the ease of ghost flying a pyra allow a captain to assist in double team rebuilds which is not as much an option for the junker. Junkers also tend to be passive about brawls "oh you are in brawl range let me turn my brawling side and we will see who wins." A Pyra can actively enter or leave a brawl depending on the flow of combat.
Ultimately winning will always be down to skill of the players involved.
-
Well poo. You guys got me thinking now. I may run the same mirrored build for mid range maps, go cara/flamer gat/mortar close and go gat/mortat art/hades merc front long range maps. Testing testing testing.
Now that is meta. Gat/Flak used to be a long time ago, we're talking about a year plus... I think some people still use it in game mainly because it's easier to hit with flak than mortar.
-
I want gat/flak back. Things were perfect last year when gat/mort and gat/flak were both viable. Mort would edge out the flak but flak had better finesse and allowed the pilot to evade and kill better. So both had their own niche. Then Muse got arming timer happy. Sometimes they do things and you just shake your head at why they are investing time in messing with them.
You aren't wrong that Gat/Flak was the meta, you're just about a year late. I'd avoid Hades on Junkers tho...the lateral movement is nuts for all but experienced gunners.
-
I hadn't played in about a year actually and the gat/flak worked just as well when adding flamer gat and explosive flak, but it may just be down to the raw skill of the guys i fly with.
-
You will find very quickly that a flamer build will simply not work vs high level players with chem spray.
It is not that you can't overwhelm them with carro/flamer eventually, its that you cannot do that before you die to say, a metamidion.
The junker is a great ship still imo but I prefer artemis + hades for a sniping side, and good old fashioned meta on the other.
I will say though that carro+flamer will destroy any and all pub matches.
-
You know. They told me in wrath that i couldn't pvp as a prot warrior and i did to great effect. In fact, i was top 20 3v for my server at the time. I'll run the numbers, find the ammo and make it work high level. Maybe not the best, but certainlyviable. ;]
-
You know. They told me in wrath that i couldn't pvp as a prot warrior and i did to great effect. In fact, i was top 20 3v for my server at the time. I'll run the numbers, find the ammo and make it work high level. Maybe not the best, but certainlyviable. ;]
I mean its just simply not effective vs chem. Like, ammo won't change that. Greased or charged potentially does OKAY damage vs say, not doing any damage, but not enough to really be a threat.
I wonder if a gat flamer mortar/flak combo would work though, because of the hull pressure. The arcs may be unviable.
-
An aggressive ramming all flamethrower pyramidion is stupidly effective, even against good crews that are chem spraying well.
-
An aggressive ramming all flamethrower pyramidion is stupidly effective, even against good crews that are chem spraying well.
It'll get you a few cheap kills, but won't win you the game.
-
An aggressive ramming all flamethrower pyramidion is stupidly effective, even against good crews that are chem spraying well.
It'll get you a few cheap kills, but won't win you the game.
Quite a bit more successful than that, in my experiences.
-
Wow that was fast. Started out with his own setup and style and got converted into the meta by the second page. Well done guys.
-
Yeah flames do squat against chem cycle teams. Why chem needs to be dropped back down again. Who thought it was a smart idea to raise it to 25 sec...sigh. 15 sec would be plenty to make sure people can't just run around perma chemming but also allow it to have a part in battles.
Ramming with flames can work because you are causing the chem cycle to be thrown off by the damage being dealt. Usually chem teams do not bring an extinguisher. So all it needs is one bad knock and in a few seconds multiple parts are going out because the chem can't keep up. They plan for the optimal situation, not for the "oh crap everything is going wrong!" situation.
-
Wow that was fast. Started out with his own setup and style and got converted into the meta by the second page. Well done guys.
Well. I'm not unreasonable. I will mentiin, however, mortars are very hard to hit with. Flak is way better in a pug. That being said, when my mortsrs were hitting that pesky merc/hades pyra after the hull was brought down, you could actually see the ship progress int shambles. PUG meta is gat/flak simply because i know, my cre will get hits. Gat/mortar is actual meta because it's more effective in more skilled hands. Findimg someone who is good on a mortar at high speed is tough because of how it has to be lead.
-
You shouldnt even need to hit at high speed.
Your not a squid. Youre a junker. Once you are in good range and arc you shouldnt need to move at all.
If shots dont hit at fullspeed it isnt the crews fault. Its the pilots fault that he is at such a speed.
-
A Junker is a good ship, able to fill a number of roles and take a decent amount of damage.
I'm personally flying side Carro/Banshee, side double Howitzer, front art. (For the science!)
The Howitzers are there if I need to do something at long range, and while they don't have arcs that the artemis has it's still a fairly powerful weapon. The artemis can complement both sides with its component destroying ability and the Carronade Banshee combo is a tad bit of an annoyance, because sure you have chem spray, but you still lost that balloon of yours.
It may not be the most effective build in existence but I like it.
-
What is a howitzer?
-
What is a howitzer?
That's what the merc was called two years ago.
-
What is a howitzer?
That's what the merc was called two years ago.
I may consistently go out of my way to call them Howitzers.
-
You shouldnt even need to hit at high speed.
Your not a squid. Youre a junker. Once you are in good range and arc you shouldnt need to move at all.
If shots dont hit at fullspeed it isnt the crews fault. Its the pilots fault that he is at such a speed.
I guess i mis-spoke. While the junker is pretty tanky, there are times when you have to move and shoot to survive. The flak is far superior in the hands of an average gunner because it's easier to hit with. I don't think anyone likes being parked in a pyras front arc unless they just turned to face you from their starboard side. But that's rare as they would run.
-
Well you should be able to out damage the pyra with your junker.
The junker has more armor thus is tankier and can survive a gatclip longer.
And it has a rather hard to hit hull compared to a pyra.
I agree for gallis or sth else but not for pyra. Only thing to keep in mind is not get rammed.
-
Wow that was fast. Started out with his own setup and style and got converted into the meta by the second page. Well done guys.
This. So much this.
-
I'm actually curious if they got rid of arming time on flak and nudged the damage down a bit if there could be two metas.One that favors a junker and one that favors a pyra rather than having the same meta across two ships that brawl so differently. Mortar would output more damage favoring an easier to aim front arc of a pyra and the flak would be easier to aim lending itself to the moving broad arc.of a junker. Just a thought.
-
Who cares what the meta is, or what these guys say. If that build works for you, and continues to work for you against good opponents, then use it. Hell, if it doesn't work and you still want to use it, keep doing so. You DO actually have a good point about it being a lot easier to land flak shots off the side of a junker. Same reason i use a flak on some mine builds.
And Alistair, the thing about junkers sitting still doesn't apply when you have an enemy who knows how to exploit weaknesses, like the junkers speed and its inability to keep up with other ships that are backpedaling. Plus, sitting still takes all the fun out of piloting.
-
What is a howitzer?
That's what the merc was called two years ago.
I may consistently go out of my way to call them Howitzers.
Whenever I think of Howitzers I think of something with a little more kick than what the merc has and sounds like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB1jyNwhgrM (random video from 2 seconds on youtube) compare this to what the merc feels like and the merc just looks like a dinky rifle, while a howitzer implies something a lot cooler :P. Although now that I think of it, a gun that has a really high vertical arch when shot would be really cool way to get at enemies behind those little sand mounds in dunes, also would take a new skill set to rain shots down from above as upposed to firing straight at an enemy
-
A little late, but as I fly gatflak junker regularly in pubs (and well, at that), I felt obliged to put some thoughts down:
For pubs, I prefer mirrored gatflack with the front nose gun as a flare or some other utility gun. When I've got a good crew, I'll usually switch one side to a longer range focus, or replace a gat with a Hades and swap the other side to a brawly/disabl-y carronad-banshee. Whatever I feel like, really.
I don't find the arming time problematic on the flak gun with the mirrored build in casual play. I can usually stay at arm's length away, on the edge of the gats range. Plus, i find that the flak punishes the enemy for mis-maneuvering into my arcs more. Also, the gat and flak are easier to aim for random pubbies. (But even then, I get a player that can't lead worth a darn with the flak, let alone mortar.)
I guess it's because I play my junker like an escort rather than a brawler or sniper. I just stay near my ally and cover their sides from medium to close range. It's worked well for me so far. I prefer the flak because the playstyle is passive, and I find it harder to cover my allies with the short range of a mortar or odd arc and the arming time of the hadies. The gat-flak is that "sweet spot" off of 120 meters where the enemy ships are most of the time.
It's also easier to coordinate by saying: Shoot the gatling all the time, and then wait until the red to shoot the flak. That way, when I change sides, spin to avoid a ram, or do some other evasive maneuver everyone knows that their job is the same, just on the other side. I love it when a pyramidion overshoots and my gunner instantly gets on the opposite side to continue shooting as if nothing has happened. Also, the flak is much easier to aim in the thick of things while spinning and dodging enemy fire.
So yeah, as of now, I think the range and accuracy of the flak is better suited to how I play "escort" junker than the close-in range of the mortars.
---
Of course, when I get a good organized crew (like many people coordinate to do), I'll change it up to play with what my crew is good at/wants. And make it something that requires more knowledge and coordination.
-
Gat flak is extremely bad on broadside ships like junkers and it will most likely get punished quite hard ocne you get to higher lvls.
Broadside ships like junkers cant control the range they engage a opponent very good.
ITs up to the ships with frontpointed weapons to decide on which range they want to engage you and that will most likely punish your gat flak if they are clever.
-
Not sure if it's been talked of, but has anyone tried Gunker? (full gat Junker?) I've used quite a bit in the matches I've piloted in, and from my experience it works very nicely if you have good comms with your ally. Get 3 gats on one ship, strip the hull in seconds, and slowly but surely you wear the hull down too.
A Carronker works very effectively as well as a disabler. A friend and I tried it in a Crazy King match (where we both piloted Carrnonkers), and we were victorious. :)
-
Seen? Alot. Useful? No.
Every build that suffers if it gets split into 1v1 isnt useful. And with the power of disable builds its just to easy to get forced into 1v1.
Why not swap one gat out for a mortar or banshee?
2 gats strip hull pretty fast aswell. Faster as any other build that doesnt bring 2 gats.
Thats the reasoning why brawlmobula is so strong.
2 gats and a mortar.
-
Gat flak is extremely bad on broadside ships like junkers and it will most likely get punished quite hard ocne you get to higher lvls.
Broadside ships like junkers cant control the range they engage a opponent very good well.
ITs up to the ships with frontpointed weapons to decide on which range they want to engage you and that will most likely punish your gat flak if they are clever.
Well yeah, I'm aware. Although i still maintain that the gat flak junker has the lowest skill barrier for new crews, which I find myself playing with very often.
Though I wouldn't say "extremely bad", but rather "just like a gat/mortar" an opponent will punish you just as much with a gat/mortar combo on both sides. In fact, It's easier to avoid the gat/mortar than a gat/flak on the side of a junker. You just stay far away, preferably with a lumberjack.
If it's "run asymmetry to make up for the range gaps" then yes, i agree.
Not sure if it's been talked of, but has anyone tried Gunker? (full gat Junker?) I've used quite a bit in the matches I've piloted in, and from my experience it works very nicely if you have good comms with your ally. Get 3 gats on one ship, strip the hull in seconds, and slowly but surely you wear the hull down too.
Nope. I always like to have a killgun. Although, I could see it working with a hwatchafish with some good cordination.
A Carronker works very effectively as well as a disabler. A friend and I tried it in a Crazy King match (where we both piloted Carrnonkers), and we were victorious. :)
When i run carronades, I pair them with banshees. If it's not disabled, it's on fire.
-----
I'd also disagree about the not useful if they can't hold their own in a 1v1. The lumberfish is useful. Galleons are useful and they can't handle a brawly 1v1 against a pilot that knows how to approach.
-
The maxrange of the gat flak is the same as the gat mortar.
Once youre out of gatrange you wont deal sufficient damage on anything except permahull which you cant damage due to missing dmg on armor.
-
Not sure if it's been talked of, but has anyone tried Gunker? (full gat Junker?) I've used quite a bit in the matches I've piloted in, and from my experience it works very nicely if you have good comms with your ally. Get 3 gats on one ship, strip the hull in seconds, and slowly but surely you wear the hull down too.
It was in a relatively low-level match (highest-level player on either team was lvl 7) back before matchmaking happened. Also, it was primarily with players who should really have been in novice matches at the time, so not exactly the ideal testing ground for viable strategies.
That said... it DID work out unreasonably well considering the team I was in was the lower-level group and had most of the novice players in the match.
2 vs. 2
Enemy had a Hwachafish and Metamidion.
We had a Gat Junker and a quad-Hwacha Galleon with Banshees (my Fireworks Display).
Gats nearly insta-stripped armour, while the Galleon's Hwachas nearly instakilled targets once the armour was down.
-
The maxrange of the gat flak is the same as the gat mortar.
Once youre out of gatrange you wont deal sufficient damage on anything except permahull which you cant damage due to missing dmg on armor.
Then have your gunner grab some lesmok for the gatling, or an engie bring some heatsink for the flak.
I just find that the flak hits more punishing more often. I ran another gat/flak junker to train some level 1's this evening and with minimal effort we decimated.
I guess I perfer short-medium versatility (on the junker) over raw killing power.
-
Mortar does more overall damage in a similiar amoutn of time.
Lesmok gat cant strip armor in one clip and heatsink reduces flakarming not to much.
30% or 20% (not sure bout the correct number) of 150m just isnt much.
-
Mortar does more overall damage in a similiar amoutn of time.
Lesmok gat cant strip armor in one clip and heatsink reduces flakarming not to much.
30% or 20% (not sure bout the correct number) of 150m just isnt much.
I know, I know, and I know. Stating facts doesn't refute my point unless you direct those facts towards a conclusion. I'd like to discuss this and topics like: does the flak's arcs, speed, and ease make up for the lack of damage, or is it possible to position a ship correctly for the narrow gat/flak bad, but it seems you're being dismissive or just matter of fact? It's hard to tell on the internet.
In any case, I'm not eye-to-eye with my junker, and I'm often strafing at a range just outside of the mortar but still well within the gatling range. Heatsink and lesmok are for the extreme cases of both weapons.
I think we're going in circles at this point.
-
I suppose it usually goes like this, when you need lesmok gatling you should probably turn your long range side to the enemy instead. Only when the enemy is really getting close to you, you would have to turn to the gat/mortar side and in this range the mortar beats the flak.
With a certain amount of piloting and engineering you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping the close range side to the enemy.
That only applies, if you have both, long range and close range sides though, which many Junker pilots do advice.
-
I suppose it usually goes like this, when you need lesmok gatling you should probably turn your long range side to the enemy instead. Only when the enemy is really getting close to you, you would have to turn to the gat/mortar side and in this range the mortar beats the flak.
With a certain amount of piloting and engineering you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping the close range side to the enemy.
That only applies, if you have both, long range and close range sides though, which many Junker pilots do advice.
In general, and on most maps, that's the way to go. I run asymmetry when I need the range more open maps like dunes and water hazard.
But, on the other hand, I think there is something to be said for being able to react very quickly with the wide turn arcs, fast rotation speed either side in constricting maps like canyon ambush, where the junker's fast acceleration make it a very responsive vessel. IMO symmetrical mortars give up too much because of their lack of range.
Basically, I'm trading side specialization for a "jack of medium-close range". There's many more options available, maneuvering wise in the thick of things. In turn, it makes it simpler to position and punish vessels that are not as nimble in that odd border of medium-long range.
Still, there's the problem of having a reactionary style instead of a proactive playstyle. I.E. you have to bank on and cause your opponent to make a mistake, but I think that's an issue more inherent to the junker itself.
Perhaps more disabling power would promote that. I could look into banshees as a replacement for the flak.
hmmm.
-
Basically, I'm trading side specialization for a "jack of medium-close range". There's many more options available, maneuvering wise in the thick of things. In turn, it makes it simpler to position and punish vessels that are not as nimble in that odd border of medium-long range.
Still, there's the problem of having a reactionary style instead of a proactive playstyle. I.E. you have to bank on and cause your opponent to make a mistake, but I think that's an issue more inherent to the junker itself.
Perhaps more disabling power would promote that. I could look into banshees as a replacement for the flak.
hmmm.
Totally agree. There's nothing better than surprising a nimble pilot trying to escape your gat with a quick side-change. I put an artemis on the front because trifectas are overrated, so I have a little range too, but in my experience the gat-mortar will reliably stop brawling pyras and squids and. . . almost everything but blenderfish.
Anyone have any good junker counters for blenderfish? A full sniper could do it, I guess. . .
-
Triple carro/double Artemis works pretty well.
-
Double merc works well along side any ship packing heavy weapons (Specifically Flak :) )
Although I like artemis on the front, I don't use artemis on front with a pub group, otherwise you find the lowest level will sit on the Artemis and only use that one gun, and if its your gunner who you need below deck, you'll soon find yourself in trouble :(
-
This is an old piloting tactic that I used to use against things.
Upon approach, begin rising.
Stay at the enemies' balloon height.
Rain down gat/mort hell.
This put morts in such an arc that the drop was irrelevant due to positioning.
Actually, are you not already doing this? Mortar drop can be accounted for by altitude for even the worst pug.
-
Being above your opponent is almost always an advantage, however with a junker you can use your greatest weakness as a powerful asset.
The junker has a giant balloon and is very vulnerable to having it popped, however you can use that big balloon as a shield to protect your hull and components. If you need repairs duck below them and keep your balloon between you and their guns.
Don't forget that your top deck engineer can't handle balloon/components and the hull. The front deck position is for repairing the hull (and help bottom deck if necessary). Stand right by the side post of the hull and look up. If you're not rebuilding a broken hull it's usually recommended to just jump up to hit it. Don't forget chem spray when your gun reloads.
As for junker builds, for exclusive close range builds I like a lesmok mine on the front.
I also enjoy heatsink light flak front (quick turning, high dmg per clip). Double banshee left, double gat or gat carro right.
Triple heavy clip carro!
Trifectas are very powerful.
-
Being above your opponent is almost always an advantage, however with a junker you can use your greatest weakness as a powerful asset.
The junker has a giant balloon and is very vulnerable to having it popped, however you can use that big balloon as a shield to protect your hull and components. If you need repairs duck below them and keep your balloon between you and their guns.
Don't forget that your top deck engineer can't handle balloon/components and the hull. The front deck position is for repairing the hull (and help bottom deck if necessary). Stand right by the side post of the hull and look up. If you're not rebuilding a broken hull it's usually recommended to just jump up to hit it. Don't forget chem spray when your gun reloads.
As for junker builds, for exclusive close range builds I like a lesmok mine on the front.
I also enjoy heatsink light flak front (quick turning, high dmg per clip). Double banshee left, double gat or gat carro right.
Triple heavy clip carro!
Trifectas are very powerful.
If you're low map turtleing with the balloon as a shield you need drogue chute or you'll start scraping the floor.
Hull is handled by lower-deck engi/gunner, top deck handles back stuff, and a guy with buff/chem does rounds. At least that's how I ordered my crew.
-
Hydrogen is recommended as the third pilot tool (with kero and claw).
For example if you're fighting a gat mortar pyra you can use your superior maneuverability to dance under the pyra until you get to a good spot to use hydrogen. This is usually on their blind side or behind them. Going under is generally only for an emergency. A junker can easily out-position a pyra as is.
If you're fighting someone with a carronade this is not recommended. I'm a fan of using hydro as soon as the balloon is back up, assuming your balloon will just get repopped. I also like hydro drogue combo but you give up a tool. It's usually not a good idea to bring a junker against carronades.
The meta junker loadout is a wrench buff chem on top deck, spanner mallet chem on front, and spanner mallet buff on bottom. The left side is a double artemis hades trifecta and the right side is a gat mortar. This is the most efficient setup for repairs and buffs. The gun setup is very effective.
One of the junker's best assets is the ability to have trifectas. I recommend using this as often as possible. That's why the front repairs hull, the gunner spot is the bottom, and one engi on top. This way the front and bottom can help eachother with repairs while the top focuses on the balloon (with the pilot) and engines. The pilot should usually be repairing and rebuilding the balloon. Bring a pipe wrench to repair damage while your engineer is occupied.
-
One of the junker's best assets is the ability to have trifectas. I recommend using this as often as possible. That's why the front repairs hull, the gunner spot is the bottom, and one engi on top. This way the front and bottom can help eachother with repairs while the top focuses on the balloon (with the pilot) and engines. The pilot should usually be repairing and rebuilding the balloon. Bring a pipe wrench to repair damage while your engineer is occupied.
I loathe crewing junkers because of this mindset. I do not automatically know what pilots expect me to do. The trifecta puts people out of position and completely relies on that hull repair sweet spot trick. And the gunner spot being below deck has a big fire problem. It's just horribly inconvenient in practice. I say if you want a trifecta, fly a Mobula.
-
Trifecta on Junker: Gunners is bottom deck, hull engi is front gun, balloon engi is side gun. Everybody is only a few steps away from their position.
Fires on bottom deck? Hull engi can easily go down there and it really isn't hard to get that hull repair sweet spot going. The hull engi on a Junker is even closer to the hull than on most other ships, making the armor repair even quicker and easier. Going to bottom to chem and back up isn't that much of a walk either and more than a chem spray is not required, which lasts long enough for half the engagements.
Most Junkers with the previous mentioned loadout have a 3rd engineer anyway, they can chem all they need to.
What I don't like is how vulnerable to engine damage it seems to me, and balloon destruction too, of course. Can never have the guy shoot the side gun...
But yeah, Mobula OP.
-
Yeah, see, I've never heard of anyone telling the main engineer to man the front gun. With a premade savvy crew I'm sure your strategy works but it's needlessly convoluted most of the time. Gunner gets front and top guns, buff engi downstairs, main engi on hull, balloon and turning engines with assistance from pilot.
-
Oops Daniel beat me to it.
In competitive Sammy would sometimes jump on the mortar....and miss every shot. (Or so I've been told)
The big problem with having the main engi on top is that the hull is too far away from everything else. With the main engi on the front they can repair the hull and help downstairs.
Triefectas are easy if you have guns with 60 degree arcs like banshees. Artemis have 65 and it can be done with 55 like flaks and carros. Generally your left side is for range and right side for close (pyra has right side blind spot). Close range doesn't need trifecta because if you're dancing the front gun may not be in arc.
The hull sweet spot isn't difficult and it's essential. I always put my most experienced crew on the hull for this reason. If you're worried about fires have the bottom deck engi bring chem. The general consensus is that the only gun that needs a gunner on a junker is a mine. If you have any other guns on the bottom its better to have a buff engi, and they can carry chem and buff downstairs and buff and repair the hull.
In my opinion the only light gun that should ever have a gunner is the mine launcher (some say hades too). If you buff while you reload your gun will stay buffed and give a winning advantage.
Other junker setups may work in pub matches but will fail against good crews. Junkers take practice to crew and pilot effectively. The junker is the best defensive ship and competitive matches have demonstrated that it excels against all except mobulas and balloon pops. Mobula OP
I can think of alternative crew positions, but none are as effective or efficient as meta. The junker isn't a very self explanatory ship.
Update: forgot to mention that the flamethrower does benefit from a gunner, or more specifically it doesn't benefit much from being buffed.
-
If you're not using trifectas, why use a junker? Without a front engineer you're just a crab pyramidion with an odd balloon.
Also your "gunner" (main person shooting your most important guns) should be lower deck as those are the most secure guns in terms of being called away to do other things. Top guns often have to be passed up due to repairs.
And I didn't miss eeeeevery shot.
-
One hit in a whole clip isnt much better sammy :P.
And yeah ... A junker is strong due to its trifecta. Not using a trifecta either at close or long to midrange renders you to a crappy pyra.
-
You can hit hull, balloon, both turning engines, and run back to hull right as mallet cooldown ends, so it's not too far from everything else until something breaks. In that case, the pilot and/or gunner can help if needed. Trifectas are not easy on the junker in practice. You have to angle your ship just right and sit still to avoid awkward diagonal movement. It's not just a matter of arcs. The Galleon, Mobula, Spire, do trifectas effortlessly, so no, a trifecta is not much of strength for the junker. The Pyramidion is also capable of it. The hull sweet spot, a gimmick, should not be essential to a ship's success. I, and I believe the original poster, are not discussing highest level play so I don't care how useless you might find the gunner class or some supposed one only viable build.
If you're not using trifectas, why use a junker? Without a front engineer you're just a crab pyramidion with an odd balloon.
Oversimplification. There are clearly advantages and disadvantes to Junker compared to Pyramidion without concern to trifectas. I shouldn't have to elaborate.
-
The triple-art trifecta is actually pretty easy to use in practice. I'd say the junker does a trifecta better than the galleon, as it can keep its guns on target more easily with the amazing yaw rate.
So I don't see how you're saying the trifecta isn't a strength for the junker?
-
You need to be able to pull that trifecta off when playing on a certain lvl.
If you simply outdps your enemy you dont have to bother with other things. I mean a trifecta will always outperform a bifecta. Thats why you cant outdps a mobula. 3 or even 4 guns are better than 2.
Sure there are other things but trifectas are SO valuable. You shouldnt even consider not using them.
And your perfect mallet cooldown path will fail immidatly when your enemy gets your armor down. Cause then your just a bid of dead metal in the air.
Have your main engi on front and he will be able to react to a armorkill and might get the rebuild If gunner or second engi are aware they would also get 2 on hull and are even saver.
-
Junker versus metamidion with equal level crews, the junker wins hands down as the armour will outlast that of the pyramidion, however as mentioned before it also depends on circumstance, if the enemy is packing balloon hitting power the junker has to utilise its versatility and in many cases this boils down to range.
If we are not talking high level play but pub matches, then I agree with Silverst when he says a front Artemis is not a good choice because more often than not the front engineer will become too focused on shooting and ignore orders to repair often leaving other crew to over work...
Again circumstance.
The junker is a very versatile ship and with a good crew and captain very effective, and I firmly believe any advice from a member of the duck clan should not be taken lightly as they are the masters of this ship. (I been watching old streams where I can :) )
As for pyramidion trifecta, yes easy to get but it leaves you open to a ram from the enemy which will knock your front guns off arc and keep enemy in arc, very dangerous.
Mobula trifecta, yes very easily accomplished but the mobula has other weaknesses such as an even bigger target than that of the Junker.
As always circumstances. :)
-
You need to be able to pull that trifecta off when playing on a certain lvl.
If you simply outdps your enemy you dont have to bother with other things. I mean a trifecta will always outperform a bifecta. Thats why you cant outdps a mobula. 3 or even 4 guns are better than 2.
Sure there are other things but trifectas are SO valuable. You shouldnt even consider not using them.
And your perfect mallet cooldown path will fail immidatly when your enemy gets your armor down. Cause then your just a bid of dead metal in the air.
Have your main engi on front and he will be able to react to a armorkill and might get the rebuild If gunner or second engi are aware they would also get 2 on hull and are even saver.
A simple repair path failing when something breaks is far less ridiculous than having your main engineer shoot things instead of repairing, or repairing slowly. Furthermore, while trifectas are of course superior when available without downside, bifectas are sufficient as evidenced by the prevalence of Pyramidions.
So I don't see how you're saying the trifecta isn't a strength for the junker?
It's a possible strength, but not a unique one. The particularly silly thing is that the Pyramidion, which the Junker is usually compared to, is also capable of a trifecta and is easier in terms of crew positions. The Galleon has 3 guns pointed in the same direction. Its maneuverability is moving into a different argument.
-
Trifectas are quite easy on a junker if you use guns with good arcs. Two very simple trifectas are the triple artemis and triple banshee. When the front gun reloads, the main engi chems the gun and chems the hull. Hull takes priority over shooting.
Having a dedicated repair or buff engi is not efficient because you're losing firepower and the parts are too far away. Stuff will break. The armor is very important and any lost time repairing it can be fatal. The junker has the lowest hull health in the game.
Repairing the armor from the front is not a gimmick, it's necessary to making the junker work. Once you practice repairing it, it will become second nature. Stand by the side and look up.
In casual play you will eventually end up fighting good players who try to win. I want you to have the best chance of success, and the meta set up is your best chance. When you fight an experienced ship and have a gunner you will lose. Fighting easy opponents should be practice for when you get a challenge. Otherwise you will not be prepared.
Update: pyra bifecta works because the pyra is easy to crew. Their prevalence in pub matches is because they're very easy compared to other ships. In reality the pyra is a weak ship that is easily countered. Pyra trifectas are possible, and one of my favorite ships is the triple mine pyra. But when engaging with a pyra you are usually only using the front guns.
-
Just because the hull trick is necessary for your crew layout to work doesn't mean it's not a gimmick. I have also not said that I find it hard. It's simply another complication to teaching a crew that can largely be avoided. The only parts that are too far away are the turning engines, and only if they have broken or the hull is about to break. In those cases, the gunner without an arc can fix them, or even the pilot if there's no control anyways. I agree that the armor is especially important and that's why your advice applies more to yourself with your main engineer shooting stuff instead of repairing. And in the case that turning engines are broken it's your loadout that suffers crucial firepower loss because your top deck engineer is no longer on side guns. So your only killzone is the small arc where the front and bottom guns overlap and that's only when your main, hull engineer is firing.
-
Yeah, see, I've never heard of anyone telling the main engineer to man the front gun. With a premade savvy crew I'm sure your strategy works but it's needlessly convoluted most of the time. Gunner gets front and top guns, buff engi downstairs, main engi on hull, balloon and turning engines with assistance from pilot.
Really? That's how most comp. crews of run their junkers for at least two years.
-
Yeah, see, I've never heard of anyone telling the main engineer to man the front gun. With a premade savvy crew I'm sure your strategy works but it's needlessly convoluted most of the time. Gunner gets front and top guns, buff engi downstairs, main engi on hull, balloon and turning engines with assistance from pilot.
Really? That's how most comp. crews of run their junkers for at least two years.
Yeah, since the front gunner can hit the hull, it's very common to have an engi (I don't call it the "Main Engi" normally front engi or something).
-
Really? That's how most comp. crews of run their junkers for at least two years.
I've been away for at least 2 years and I don't run with comp. crews, so yeah, really. I also don't believe it to be that good, but that's not necessarily my main complaint. The setup isn't intuitive and I see people mimicking aspects of it without giving any direction. Like I said, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing when I get on other people's Junkers because of this.
-
I call that position "nose engie" or "hull engie." The main engie is the guy at the back of the ship responsible for the balloon, turning engines, shooting, the back guns, and fixing the hull if the nose gunner is too distracted. Even when playing with scrubs I try and run the junker with a nose engie and a back deck engie just so they learn crew positions. I try and have my back deck engie be the more experienced player.
-
I call the hull engi the main engi on every ship. Sometimes I like to use colors for quick orders: hull blue, balloon red, gunner green. "On reloads green tap engine blue chem hull"
Not knowing what to do on a ship is a common and separate problem. If the pilot doesn't give you a recommended loadout and tell you what to do, then they don't know either. If you fly with an experienced pilot they will tell you what to do and they will be using 'this' junker setup.
If a junker is getting disabled the pilot will reposition by using altitude. The junker has excellent maneuverability so use that to avoid disables. Reposition and disable them. Buffed balloons are very powerful. The meta junker setup will out repair and out gun alternative setups.
-
It's not just a matter of arcs. The Galleon, Mobula, Spire, do trifectas effortlessly, so no, a trifecta is not much of strength for the junker. The Pyramidion is also capable of it
Its not just capability to do trifectas with arcs but more an issue of crew work. The Junker is better for trifectas due to spread out crew. Sure a pyra has an easy trifecta but the third gunman is also in charge of armor and three engines. The Junker probably the most well spread out ship in terms of crew responsibilities.
. The hull sweet spot, a gimmick, should not be essential to a ship's success.
IIRC the devs have said its not a gimmick or a mistake but by design.
I, and I believe the original poster, are not discussing highest level play so I don't care how useless you might find the gunner class or some supposed one only viable build.
Wasn't talking about classes or anything, just general roles.
If you're not using trifectas, why use a junker? Without a front engineer you're just a crab pyramidion with an odd balloon.
Oversimplification. There are clearly advantages and disadvantes to Junker compared to Pyramidion without concern to trifectas. I shouldn't have to elaborate.
[/quote]
Sure its a bit of an oversimplification but its still giving up probably the best edge a junker has against other ships.
-
Let it be said, Sammy & The Ducks are probably the best junker pilots in the game so they know what they're talking about :P
please don't start a debate please don't start a debate
-
A competent pyra pilto can kill any junker that isnt aware of balloon rams.
You dont need ljs or carronades to abuse the junkers balloon as an enemy.
A pyra ramming your balloon and staying on top of you will get you down.
-
What I'm more surprised by is that someone is confused by the concept of a "main engineer" or hull engineer shooting. Basically every ship with high firepower needs a hull engineer shooting. Spire top deck, mobula hull side, and galleon main engineer are all examples of this. If anything, it's a lot harder on those ships, and the engineer is punished more for not being on point. The mobulas hull is so much farther in compared to the 2 steps it takes on a junker. If you think your engineer won't know to stop shooting when taking too much damage then you should simply not take a ship with high firepower. If I have pubs on my ship I basically usually limit myself to goldfish or pyra. I used to have the patience for explaining everything but that was lost long ago. So really, I agree this setup could be bad for novice crew members, but to be honest I really doubt novice crew members would take or know what a "meta junker" is, or they would think it's a junker with two symmetrical gat mortar sides. Judging by this it's pretty fair to say it's usually not the best to compare pubs to doing things at the height of efficiency.
-
IIRC the devs have said its not a gimmick or a mistake but by design.
Then it's bad design. It should be fixed to be easier and more apparent.
What I'm more surprised by is that someone is confused by the concept of a "main engineer" or hull engineer shooting.
You're confused if you think I'm confused. I'm arguing that making the main engineer shoot for a trifecta on specifically the junker is prohibitively convoluted for the majority of builds and crews. Your few and limited examples are not very compelling in the idea that hull engineers need to be firing guns often. Your cemented idea that the Junker, a ship with five small guns in three different directions is a high firepower ship instead of a resilient, versatile ship is what I'm contesting. While a trifecta is possible, it is not necessarily optimal in the ship's strategic use, like in the case of the Pyramidion. If you want a small gun trifecta, the Mobula exists for just that.
-
But the trifecta is not a good strategy for pyramidions in many cases, against many ships it leaves you open to a ram which will throw your main guns off arc, Junkers are resiliant yes but opening the angle for trifecta means a ram will still leave your main guns in arc only knocking the front gun off arc...
Again it is dependant on the situation but more often than not a pyramidion should concentrate more on front guns and brawling rams or better positioning than worrying about trifecta..
However this is mostly concerning competitive tactics. In pub matches I do agree trifecta with hull engineer on a junker is not a good idea as they will often forget the repairs, but this is a very different situation...
-
But the trifecta is not a good strategy for pyramidions in many cases, against many ships it leaves you open to a ram which will throw your main guns off arc, Junkers are resiliant yes but opening the angle for trifecta means a ram will still leave your main guns in arc only knocking the front gun off arc...
With the junker having the best arc coverage in game, usually the most armor in the game, being surprisingly nimble, and having a close, abusable balloon for altitude escapes, it is surely the ship least concerned about being rammed. Furthermore, with this godmode trifecta, I have to wonder why it's getting rammed to begin with.
However this is mostly concerning competitive tactics. In pub matches I do agree trifecta with hull engineer on a junker is not a good idea as they will often forget the repairs, but this is a very different situation...
Right, it's not a good idea. Unless you're using this advanced, specialist strategy with a pre-trained crew, it all falls apart. This means a normal junker should not have someone on the front gun at all times, a gunner should not be bottom deck, and one guy should focus almost completely on repairs.
-
When I run Junker in pubs I have a gunner and gungineer, with a main engi, the main engi can shoot the merc on approach to enemies but will.soon find himself out of arc when its time for engagement, pushing him to repairs...
Junker balloon rams are very effective if their pilot is not prepared for it, and can often lead to painful goomba stomps, again situational, a good junker pilot often stays high keeping them safe from such situations (as discussed above.) :)
-
When I run Junker in pubs I have a gunner and gungineer, with a main engi, the main engi can shoot the merc on approach to enemies but will.soon find himself out of arc when its time for engagement, pushing him to repairs...
Junker balloon rams are very effective if their pilot is not prepared for it, and can often lead to painful goomba stomps, again situational, a good junker pilot often stays high keeping them safe from such situations (as discussed above.) :)
The problem with the main engineer being on the merc is that he couldn't be farther from where he needs to be, which is near hull or balloon/turning engines. It's an inefficient transition. He can use the hull ramp trick, but that requires special knowledge and he will eventually have to make himself up top deck anyways. The gungineer bottomdeck is also ill-suited for it because of lack of ammo types. The gunner with access to three ammo types should man the merc while the buff engineer buffs it on approach. For middle range the gunner transitions port, top side guns to avoid the boxes. Starboard should be close range or utility.
-
That's assuming I turn too late, I'll be out of merc arc before engagement and normally trying to explain to him why he should leave the gun alone.
As for your suggestion, that's good but normally with pub crews the buff engineer is doing buffs to.hunt acheivs and getting them to buff anything other than that achievement can be a real pain.. Unless its a green name. :)
The problem i find when i ask a gunner to man the merc (we are speaking strictly public matches) the gunner will often start demanding the ship be turned into merc arc rather than using the lower deck guns, it really does depend how aware and co-operative the crew are..
With friends i rarely need to say anything beyond "main" "gunner" "gungineer" :)
-
I don't agree with the ramming talk.
First, the trifecta side is almost always the long range side so you won't be rammed on that side.
A good junker pilot will dodge any ram from a goldfish or pyra as long as they have room. This is very easy with buffed engines and/or balloon.
The point is don't get rammed! If you have engines and balloon and room you can dodge it. Every time I've been rammed (with healthy components) is because I let myself get rammed.
I agree that it should be a bit easier to repair from the front. It's like if you had to repair the top engine of the pyra at a more specific angle.
As a pilot in pub matches your mic is your best friend. If you sound confident and give clear instructions, your crew will follow. If you don't have a mic or don't use it, your ship will fail. If they mess up don't yell at them.
I tend to talk more than most pilots, mostly to give relevant info to newer players, but also about our current situation/plan. If you micromanage your crew they will never have to guess what to do.
If they screw up be calm and explain. If you screw up admit it. Everyone gets better and your crew will trust you and stick around. Add them as friends and invite them to do the same.
-
Pubs aren't always bottom of the barrel powder monkeys. There's nothing you can do about them and it's fine to expect more from a crew. The "man port guns" voice command should be sufficient in your scenario. The problem you'll have there is the main engineer will get on the gun and then you have a gunner to repair things, so you may have to straighten that out from the start. That's why I'm trying to establish some normalcy to crewing a junker.
-
I know not every pub match is bottom of the barrel, I've made many new friends through playing public matches and always try to keep in touch with those who are good, BlackenedPies, yes the microphone is the best asset, speaking two languages also helps but I am trying to give examples of worst case scenarios to explain why I sometimes change the guns away from the norm which has been mentioned multiple times. Also yes you are right balloon rams on junkers should be rare, but it still does happen and I was only using the rams for pyra versus junker explanation, a pyramidions trifecta is less effective than a junkers for many reasons, dodges included.
Main: There is a great guide "aboard a junker" its here in the forums and on steam, it has the basics of what most people consider the "norm" for a junker which has also been discussed earlier in the thread. :)
-
I tend to find the best tactic in a pyra against a junker is to not ram because they will out dance you and kill you. Stay inbetween their long range and close range. Switch when they switch. Or bring a carronade and win.
Tell crew what to do and they'll do it! It's very rare that you run into a crew member who simply won't listen.
The best way to root uncooperative crew out is if they don't accept a recommended loadout. If they refuse to bring the loadout or leave I will leave, report the uncooperative crew, and invite the rest to a new crew form.
If you tell them what to do and they trust you, your ship will succeed. Experience has nothing to do with it. Crew might panic but after that they will learn. Trust your crew.
The meta loadout is nice and simple because no one has to move much. The front and bottom can work together and the top deck only needs one engi.
Crew not listening is a separate matter. If they listen, they will only screw up if you screw up. Crew pick up on the captain's confidence and calm. Trust yourself, trust them.
-
There is a great guide "aboard a junker" its here in the forums and on steam, it has the basics of what most people consider the "norm" for a junker which has also been discussed earlier in the thread. :)
on the lower Deck, together with the Gunner. With the amount of components on the top deck, the 2 Engineers are better suited for gunning there and one can always quickly run down to help, for instance when the Main Engine goes down
This is wrong. The lower deck has a critical fire problem. Sending an engineer down to fix stuff is incredibly inefficient. Having two engineers top deck also creates confusion from the overlap of responsibilities.
-
*shrugs* then maybe you should experiment and find a new system yourself but I think many people have said what is considered the norm, if you are finding it inefficient practice with a new system and see if it works for you.
-
There is a great guide "aboard a junker" its here in the forums and on steam, it has the basics of what most people consider the "norm" for a junker which has also been discussed earlier in the thread. :)
on the lower Deck, together with the Gunner. With the amount of components on the top deck, the 2 Engineers are better suited for gunning there and one can always quickly run down to help, for instance when the Main Engine goes down
This is wrong. The lower deck has a critical fire problem. Sending an engineer down to fix stuff is incredibly inefficient. Having two engineers top deck also creates confusion from the overlap of responsibilities.
As far as crew goes, I don't usually have a problem. I pubs I go "okay engineers stay topside and gunner you stay on the guns below."
That's really all I have to do. Occasionally, I'll have to say, "okay, stop shooting the front gun and go full repairs. We're switching to the close range guns." But for the most part The engies can coordinate and figure out who's responsible for what. I'm not a very micro-manag-y captian.
That's literally all I have to do. People don't give pubbies enough credit. Heck, usually I get stuck with levels 1-5 and make it work after 15 or so seconds of explaining. Sometimes I can even get a sniper-mobula to work with the newbies.
It's when I'm running a hard-to-aim gun like the hadies or LJ and don't have a good gunner is when the ship suffers, but tri-artimis, a galtling, and a banshee on a junker isn't exactly hard to aim.
I haven't had a bottom-deck fire problem on the junker as well. The hadies usually hits the balloon, and the tri-artimis usually disables most all a flamer-ship's components before it gets into flamer range, allowing for easy dodges.
-
A big factor to keep into account could be language barriers, most of the pubs I play with will be from different corners of Europe. Besdides I was not intending to bash pubs, just giving worst case scenarios as examples as to why some things can be done differently from time to time
-
The Junker trifecta is not great because of gun placement but instead because of crew placement. The difference between all guns firing and full repairs (engines balloon and hull) is very small and well balanced between crew. The junker trifecta is therefore less costly in terms of repairs than other ships. Spires, Mobulas, and Galleons have much easier and more powerful trifectas, however they don't have the seamless transition from repairs to trifecta that the Junker does.
Having the main engineer for the trifecta on the junker is the safest third gunner on any ship.
Basic Junker main has just the armor and front gun
Basic galleon main engineer has armor, balloon and side gun
Spire is gnerally weird but none are terribly close to armor
Mobula main has gun (sometimes 2) armor and engine none of which are close
Pyramidion has armor, 3 engines, and 2 guns with terrible arcs.
-
The difference of response time from gun to hull on Mobula and Spire compared to Junker is less than a second. The Galleon is faster. That time is important, sure. The increased responsibilities on those ships also makes the hull engineer a less reliable third gunner, yes, but all you've done on the Junker is shift those responsibilities to the top deck engineer. So your hull engineer is less a third gunner, and more the second gunner. This limits your kill zone to the diagonals where the gun arcs overlap, making your turning engines more critical and pinning your captain to the helm more. This means your ship is more likely to be reduced to one, ineffective gunner in a firefight than a normal setup.
-
The difference of response time from gun to hull on Mobula and Spire compared to Junker is less than a second. The Galleon is faster. That time is important, sure. The increased responsibilities on those ships also makes the hull engineer a less reliable third gunner, yes, but all you've done on the Junker is shift those responsibilities to the top deck engineer. So your hull engineer is less a third gunner, and more the second gunner. This limits your kill zone to the diagonals where the gun arcs overlap, making your turning engines more critical and pinning your captain to the helm more. This means your ship is more likely to be reduced to one, ineffective gunner in a firefight than a normal setup.
I don't follow.
For the sake of comparison, A mobula is reduced from a trifecta to a single gun with hadies, lumberjack, or carronade (weapons the put stress on the balloon and (eventually) hull) since the areas are so spread out. On a junker, the engineers overlapping is good because one engie can bounce between hull and balloon, leaving the other to fire.
While not quite as drastic as the mobula, the spire has this as well, the balloon and hull are at different locations. There is no flexibility in roles. If the hull armor is stripped, the balloon engine can't climb the spire to fix it in a timely manner. Most galleons as well, because the gungineer may be on the bottom deck shooting away from the balloon/hull.
With the junker, the small deck space allows the engineers to be more flexible. If the balloon gets hit and an engie sees the gungie and pilot already on it, they can feel free to step on a gun and return fire. Out of all the ships I'd say the junker is the hardest (aside from maybe the pyra), to reduce to only one gun shooting through pubby engineer stress.
But perhaps I misunderstood your point?
-
Junkers have very concentrated work stations in terms of engineering
The distance from the front gun-> (sweet spot) hull is very short allowing the hull engineer to quickly react when the hull is damaged
The distance from the top deck guns -> (sweet spot) balloon is very short allowing the main engineer to quickly react when the balloon is damaged
Engines are always next to a crew member and so can always be maintained
The ship components on a junker are very easy to maintain and thus allow for a reliable trifecta
---------------------------------
Mobula
Distance to the balloon and engines from the guns will force an engineer off the guns for an extended period of time if tanking is in effect
---------------------------------
Spire
Distance to balloon and turning engines from the bottom deck guns are a bit of a trek.
Not to mention, the hull breaks so fast (due to low armor health and so much of that armor is exposed on a spire) that the main engi is probably gonna be off the guns for an extended period of time.
---------------------------------
Galleon
The distance from the hull and balloon is about the same as a junker but you only have one engineer on it,
due to the big guns needing a lot of maintenance and the vitally important turning engines (and main engine if sweet spotted)
In tanking situations the bottom deck engi will probably come help repair the hull if the balloon is taking damage,
thus taking them off the guns for an extended period of time.
In that time, the big guns would be heavily damaged because the gunner doesn't have a fire fighting tool, and so the big guns need to be rebuilt to shoot.
-
I was comparing two different Junker crewing positions, not only other ships. Of course most ships will be reduced to one gun if both balloon and hull are taking heavy damage. Galleons and Junkers are exceptions because the pilots are expected to help on balloon. I'm not disputing it's a strength/weakness of the ship. I have not heard the other side (hull engineer on front gun) advocating the top deck engineer to repair the hull. That is not particularly compact and would be a strength/weakness of my side (hull engineer on top deck).
The Mobula/Spire components are not so far from the guns as to be substantially worse than the Junker, and are better protected, needing to be repaired less. If you're arguing that the Junker has a better trifecta than the Mobula which is made specifically to have a trifecta, then you are arguing that the Mobula is just a bad ship. This is a disaster design-wise and I'm not interested in abusing ship mechanisms to this degree, playing an unbalanced game. Sounds like the Junker needs a nerf, such as removing hull repair from bottom deck completely.
Overlap is bad, it creates confusion and is inefficient. Notice how in your scenario a gunner is repairing something and an engineer is shooting.
-
I think you are mis-understanding people when they say the Junkers strength is in its trifecter, no one has argued the trifecter of a Junker is better than the mobula, it is the Junkers strength because of the ships capabilities and compact design, a mobula can keep triefter easier than the junker from a pilots POV but the mobula requires more time to travel to repair components. The Junker requires more specific angles to keep trifecter.
-
The ship components on a junker are very easy to maintain and thus allow for a reliable trifecta
I was speaking to this, the practical application of a trifecta. They have chosen Junker over Mobula and regard the trifecta as utmost importance, so yes, they are arguing that it's a better trifecta.
-
1. The strength of your trifecta relies on your load out choice
2. I don't know how you got this impression because I reinforced my point over and over again in each ship but
Trifecta reliability refers to the total duration of time a crew member is on a gun, not how better a trifecta is on a ship
if you're an engineer, you would stay on a guns for a little longer because you know that the balloon or hull is only a few steps away from being repaired
(that is all I meant, if you referring to anything else then it was a figment of your imagination)
3. The flaw of the junker is that it requires a bit of piloting to angle the ship to get all guns shooting, you have to angle your ship every time you want a trifecta much like a galleon. This limits load out choice if you want all guns shooting and it wastes a lot of time getting into a favorable position.
Not only that, the junker has very good acceleration but very slow top speed. Junkers, in this manner, excel at sticking to point or limited space and defending it. A ship that needs to travel quite a distance is not going to be as effective as with any other ship.
The main weakness of the junker is the balloon, simple as that. It is very easy to hit, easy to pop, and digs into the hull eventually killing it. It will keep it grounded with all guns out of arcs. With such a blaring weakness, you can see why it is not as common.
4. In my scenario, an engineer has the choice to either pressure the enemy by shooting or walk a component to repair it in time. On a junker, a component can simply be maintained in reloading time because the components are so close to crew members. Of course you probably want to be fixated on important components if broken, but the guns are not too far a distance away. On a mobula, if you're shooting as an engineer, you have to walk quite a distance to repair the turning engines.
5. You probably don't want a gunner on a junker. My consensus is that gunners are specialist classes that are only there to manage a mine launcher or a lumberjack. If you do have a gunner on the bottom deck, then the hull engineer is not too far away from the bottom deck to help maintain fires.
6. Please define your points in a concise manner. The worst thing you can do is write an argument going in several different directions and not to mention, in a wall of text. You are not being graded all the time but it's just a word of advice. It makes it very hard to support the points you make.
(this is referring to Kain Phalanx)
-
Omg I can't get rid of it
Don't read any of that please
I'll write proper response to your statement later Kain
-
Ok
Protip: never write in a rush
I described a particular trait that the junker has over other ships
but I didn't mean that the ship was better than any of those other ships
Trifecta reliability is a term I made up to refer to the total amount of time a crew member is on the guns shooting.
There are many factors that determine this such as the health of important components (such as balloon and hull), how exposed those components are to shoot, and distance to repair them from the guns.
I never stated that the junker was better for trifectas than the mobula, in fact I think quite the opposite.
My original statement was referring to a trait that the junker has over many other ships, not that it was the best at anything.
I hope that clears up everything.
-
Personally, I think the junker is one of the most underrated ships in the game. It has the fastest turn speed in the game, high armor, and the most guns of any ship of its size. Some downsides are a lackluster speed, hull and (here's the big one) a large balloon that screams 'pop me'.
Have the gunner stay on the bottom of the ship and the engineers split up the bow and stern on the top deck. Use the fact that a junker can turn fast to maximize the use of its guns. It is a firepower centered highly maneuverable platform.
Some builds I like:
Front gun: Flamethrower
Left guns: 2x Banshee
Right guns: Gatling mortar
This build can pretty much handle anything. Crews seem to like it too because it allows them to get on a bunch of different kind of guns. The banshees are for long range, the Gat mortar is for short range and the flamethrower is a defensive weapon to disable ships. It can also be used offensively to charge a ship, burn it, and finish it off with the right guns. Takes a little bit to train a crew to do it right but when you do you're pretty deadly.
Front gun: Artemis
Left guns: 2x Artemis
Right guns: Gatling Mortar
If you point this ship in the front left direction at a target, you will be able to use 3 Artemis launchers at once. Since you have 3 crew members the firepower of this ship is arguably as much as a Mobula at range. Yes it can bring down Mobulas at range. Great for 3v3. This build is also not a slouch at all in close quarters when you use the guns on the right. If an enemy gets close, phoenix claw the ship around to face the right weapons and tell your crew to finish them off.
Front gun: Gatling gun
Left guns: Gatling Mortar
Right guns: Gatling Mortar
This build is totally trolltastic. At the right angles, the front and the right-or-left Gatling gun can be fired at the same time for some fast removal of armor. Then you turn to the mortar to finish a ship off. It kills really quickly, but it's a short range only build and has no fire disable.
There are really a lot of options for the junker and it is easily one of my favorite ships. And yes, it is very viable. Just watch out for hellhound blender-fish.
-
What I have to say to this:
Personally, I think the junker is one of the most underrated ships in the game. It has the fastest turn speed in the game, high armor, and the most guns of any ship of its size. Some downsides are a lackluster speed, hull and (here's the big one) a large balloon that screams 'pop me'.
Have the gunner stay on the bottom of the ship and the engineers split up the bow and stern on the top deck. Use the fact that a junker can turn fast to maximize the use of its guns. It is a firepower centered highly maneuverable platform.
Some builds I like:
Front gun: Flamethrower
Left guns: 2x Banshee
Right guns: Gatling mortar
This build can pretty much handle anything. Crews seem to like it too because it allows them to get on a bunch of different kind of guns. The banshees are for long range, the Gat mortar is for short range and the flamethrower is a defensive weapon to disable ships. It can also be used offensively to charge a ship, burn it, and finish it off with the right guns. Takes a little bit to train a crew to do it right but when you do you're pretty deadly.
Front gun: Artemis
Left guns: 2x Artemis
Right guns: Gatling Mortar
If you point this ship in the front left direction at a target, you will be able to use 3 Artemis launchers at once. Since you have 3 crew members the firepower of this ship is arguably as much as a Mobula at range. Yes it can bring down Mobulas at range. Great for 3v3. This build is also not a slouch at all in close quarters when you use the guns on the right. If an enemy gets close, phoenix claw the ship around to face the right weapons and tell your crew to finish them off.
Front gun: Gatling gun
Left guns: Gatling Mortar
Right guns: Gatling Mortar
This build is totally trolltastic. At the right angles, the front and the right-or-left Gatling gun can be fired at the same time for some fast removal of armor. Then you turn to the mortar to finish a ship off. It kills really quickly, but it's a short range only build and has no fire disable.
There are really a lot of options for the junker and it is easily one of my favorite ships. And yes, it is very viable. Just watch out for hellhound blender-fish.
Junker has high armor but really low permahaul.
On build 1 and 3 you don't EVER need a gunner. Everything there works best with greased (one engie can get lesmok for flamer).
Build 2 I like the most, still I would add a hades and remove an artemis from the side.
Build 1 and 3 only work on Paritan / Ambush / maybe Duel at Dawn - basically cluttered maps. I can't see them doing anything against a hades/artemis pyra on Firnfeld (for instance).
Also - because junker has a high armor but very little permahaul, I do recommend taking 3 engineers as often as possible. Have 1 buff and 2 repair, keep your engines and armor always buffed.
-
I run junker. Is good.
I run with a merc on front, to lead us in and disable anything before combat.
I then have flamers on bottom deck and mortars on top. Either side gives fire, for burning out everything(I prefer my gunner to have burst ammo on the flamers) and the mortars finish the job. True that a chem spray run can protect from this tactic, but I have not seen it happen yet. Don't know why, but it works out.