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Suggestion: crew joining during matches

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BlackenedPies:
Captains have the right to an effective loadout. Crew have the right to choose their captain. Conflict occurs when interests collide. This causes inefficiency.

I will support any captain's decision to not start the game until they have the right loadout. It's a courtesy to not ready up until everyone is ready, and I would never force an opponent to start with the wrong loadout no matter how long it took. I believe that it's irresponsible to let a player refuse to bring the captain's loadout, and unfortunately this can lead to Lobbies of Icarus.
If a crew member on the other side is making everyone wait for them, it would be ridiculous to blame the captain for not starting the match. I wholeheartedly support their decision and I would expect the other captains to do too. The crew member is making the lobby wait- not the captain.

I believe that not giving in to a crew's bad loadout is the right thing to do. I'll use match chat and say that I'm waiting on _ and for them to please hurry up. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Fighting stubbornness with stubbornness is pretty ineffective, but I don't know what the alternative is. This is a team game and if a crew doesn't want to be a team player then they shouldn't be on the ship, and there are plenty of others who want to play as a team. The fun/success of the team outweighs the desire of the individual.

Allowing crew to ready up would be a disaster to all captains. It would allow a crew to bring any loadout, and to be all gunners if they chose to. Regardless of the mechanics or how the system works, the captain chooses the loadout of their ship. The crew can have input, but in the end it is up to the captain. The game is a mess when crew decide their loadouts, and I would argue that everyone on the ship has more fun when the crew has the right loadout. A system that doesn't allow the captain to choose loadouts is a broken system.

The classic example is the hwatcha gunner. All hwatcha gunners bring heavy clip and burst, and if the gunner refuses to bring both then they shouldn't be shooting a hwatcha. It would be extremely inconsiderate to force the captain to start with the wrong ammo. It would be wrong to force the gunner to bring the right ammo, but it would be wrong to force the captain to have the wrong ammo.
I would argue that the captain's need to have the right ammo supersedes the gunner's ability to bring the wrong ammo. The captain has the choice of the build and it's the crews' job to crew it effectively. The gunner accommodates the captain not the other way around. If they don't like it then they don't have to be on the ship. GoI is a team game.

Crew have the liberty of choosing their captain but not the other way around. By refusing to cooperate they are wasting everyone's time. The captain shouldn't have to leave because of a detrimental crew member. Having a bad loadout, or 2 gunners, or an extra pilot can be a death sentence, and I believe that it's the captain's right to prevent that. Every captain has the right to an effective loadout. Crew members have the right to choose their captain. There are plenty of players who want to be a team, and there are some who don't.

Generally when a captain gives a loadout it's because they know it will be effective, and rarely do captains give ineffective loadouts. If a captain wanted me to bring a bad loadout and I wanted to bring the right loadout, I probably wouldn't stick around. If the captain consistently hears that his loadout should be _, maybe eventually he will take the advice. GoI is about fun and learning.

There sometimes is the problem that the crew member doesn't speak English, but most are able to explain that they don't speak english and that they speak _. In this case I will go to google translate, and ask the lobby/global if anyone speaks the language. I rarely run into this problem. Most of the time I'm dealing with names that imply they speak english.

Regardless of how the system works, the captain chooses loadouts. If a crew wants to bring what they want, then they should find a captain who will let them bring it. A captain should never be forced to have a bad loadout (ex 2 gunners). I'm picky and stubborn and don't mix well with players that don't cooperate. This leads to inefficiency and universal frustration. The system is broken, and if matchmaking is the fix, then I hope it arrives quickly.

Squidslinger Gilder:
Too many triple or quadruple gunner spires = urge to kill...rising...

Seen that a few times recently. Sad. Poor guy started with AI to get the match going then within 2 mins he had 3 gunners join on him. Died once, rage quit. When its that bad, I just refuse to engage till they leave.

obliviondoll:

--- Quote from: BlackenedSkies on August 08, 2014, 10:44:56 pm ---Captains have the right to an effective loadout. Crew have the right to choose their captain. Conflict occurs when interests collide. This causes inefficiency.
--- End quote ---

Captains choose an effective loadout for the SHIP, and for THEMSELVES. Captains have the right to ADVISE their crew on complementary loadouts. In competitive matches, competent crew will work with the captain. In random public matches, they don't always do so.

And as to crew having the right to choose their captain, what happens when you have a 2 vs. 2 lobby with 3 premade crews? How exactly are the crew supposed to choose their captain? They have one option.


--- Quote ---I will support any captain's decision to not start the game until they have the right loadout. It's a courtesy to not ready up until everyone is ready, and I would never force an opponent to start with the wrong loadout no matter how long it took. I believe that it's irresponsible to let a player refuse to bring the captain's loadout, and unfortunately this can lead to Lobbies of Icarus.
--- End quote ---

ANY captain? Any at all? What if you've got a squid with 3 gatling guns and their captain's "right" loadout is 3 engineers with lochnagar rounds, spanner, mallet and buff hammer? Will you support their right to be a jerk to their crew? It's the captain's right to do that though, yeah? You're ok with that?

I agree that the captain has the right to REQUEST changes, as I've said. If everyone on the crew can tell that the captain's advice is insane, and decides not to play along, they should have that right. If even one person on the ship agrees with the captain, nothing would change and they still have to wait.


--- Quote ---If a crew member on the other side is making everyone wait for them, it would be ridiculous to blame the captain for not starting the match. I wholeheartedly support their decision and I would expect the other captains to do too. The crew member is making the lobby wait- not the captain.
--- End quote ---

If a crew member is UNABLE to communicate and DOESN'T KNOW why the match isn't starting, you can't necessarily blame them for being silent. If a crew member has explained themselves clearly and made valid points against the captain's suggested loadout, and the captain's argument is "but I'm the captain and I want you to do it, I don't care if your way is better", then I'd blame the captain. If the crew are telling the captain why they have their loadouts, and the captain isn't explaining why they should change, then they aren't the ones holding the game up. The guy who is refusing to click "ready" is holding the game up.


--- Quote ---I believe that not giving in to a crew's bad loadout is the right thing to do. I'll use match chat and say that I'm waiting on _ and for them to please hurry up. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Fighting stubbornness with stubbornness is pretty ineffective, but I don't know what the alternative is. This is a team game and if a crew doesn't want to be a team player then they shouldn't be on the ship, and there are plenty of others who want to play as a team. The fun/success of the team outweighs the desire of the individual.
--- End quote ---

If I was on your crew, and someone disagreed - with good reason - with your proposed loadout, I'd expect you to at least provide some semblance of an explanation for why you want an alternative. I agree that captains have some authority over their crew. But they don't have 100% control, or they would have 100% control.


--- Quote ---Allowing crew to ready up would be a disaster to all captains. It would allow a crew to bring any loadout, and to be all gunners if they chose to. Regardless of the mechanics or how the system works, the captain chooses the loadout of their ship. The crew can have input, but in the end it is up to the captain. The game is a mess when crew decide their loadouts, and I would argue that everyone on the ship has more fun when the crew has the right loadout. A system that doesn't allow the captain to choose loadouts is a broken system.
--- End quote ---

Requiring ALL the crew to ready up before it counts would negate your argument in almost every case. If ONE crew member agrees with the captain's request, the remaining 2 can't ready the ship up on their own. If the ship has a single AI slot open, the captain still has final say because there aren't 3 crew members available to ready up and force the captain's hand.


--- Quote ---The classic example is the hwatcha gunner. All hwatcha gunners bring heavy clip and burst, and if the gunner refuses to bring both then they shouldn't be shooting a hwatcha. It would be extremely inconsiderate to force the captain to start with the wrong ammo. It would be wrong to force the gunner to bring the right ammo, but it would be wrong to force the captain to have the wrong ammo.
I would argue that the captain's need to have the right ammo supersedes the gunner's ability to bring the wrong ammo. The captain has the choice of the build and it's the crews' job to crew it effectively. The gunner accommodates the captain not the other way around. If they don't like it then they don't have to be on the ship. GoI is a team game.
--- End quote ---

And in that example, most players - myself included - will agree with a captain asking for Heavy/Burst, and will refuse to ready up when a guy with greased/lochnagar/lesmok is saying "No, I want to use these ammo types, ready up so we can play". Don't just work from the grounds of "I'm captain, what I say goes", SUPPORT your case, and your crew will support you. Crews have to work with their captains, and captains have to work with their crews. One uncooperative crew member doesn't get the option to ready up the ship. An entire crew disagreeing with their captain does.

From the sound of things, you're doing it right in-game for the most part. I disagree agree with how you presented your case in the beginning here, but I don't disagree with everything you're saying. I think the captain is the only person on a ship who should have the ability to ready the ship up ALONE. A single crew member saying "no, I want THIS loadout" is going to be held up by the captain AND the rest of the crew refusing to ready up. A pair of gunners who both refuse to swap roles will be held up by the captain AND the lone engineer who doesn't want to be alone. In many cases, the two gunners will both want to be the only gunner, so they won't ready up until one or the other backs down anyway.


--- Quote ---Crew have the liberty of choosing their captain but not the other way around. By refusing to cooperate they are wasting everyone's time. The captain shouldn't have to leave because of a detrimental crew member. Having a bad loadout, or 2 gunners, or an extra pilot can be a death sentence, and I believe that it's the captain's right to prevent that. Every captain has the right to an effective loadout. Crew members have the right to choose their captain. There are plenty of players who want to be a team, and there are some who don't.
--- End quote ---

It's the captain's responsibility to TRY and prevent that. It isn't always possible. In those cases, it's the captain's responsibility to make the best of what they have. The captain has the right to request changes, and the right to delay things (to a lesser extent once matchmaking is in place, apparently) when the crew don't listen. They don't have the right to dictate everything about their crew's choices every step of the way.


--- Quote ---Generally when a captain gives a loadout it's because they know it will be effective, and rarely do captains give ineffective loadouts. If a captain wanted me to bring a bad loadout and I wanted to bring the right loadout, I probably wouldn't stick around. If the captain consistently hears that his loadout should be _, maybe eventually he will take the advice. GoI is about fun and learning.
--- End quote ---

Generally when a competent captain gives a loadout, and a crew member disagrees, the captain will explain WHY they want the loadout they do. If they don't do that, nobody is learning anything. When a competent crew member disagrees with the captain's suggested loadout, they're going to explain why they don't want to take the loadout being suggested. If the captain doesn't give them a valid counter-point to their reasoning, they have the right to not listen.


--- Quote ---There sometimes is the problem that the crew member doesn't speak English, but most are able to explain that they don't speak english and that they speak _. In this case I will go to google translate, and ask the lobby/global if anyone speaks the language. I rarely run into this problem. Most of the time I'm dealing with names that imply they speak english.
--- End quote ---

Some people are uncommunicative for various reasons. Sometimes it's partly due to the language barrier. And sometimes, google translate doesn't help because the translations make no real sense. Have you seen the mess you get when you translate back and forth between English and Japanese on that site? It's actually pretty funny sometimes.


--- Quote ---Regardless of how the system works, the captain chooses loadouts. If a crew wants to bring what they want, then they should find a captain who will let them bring it. A captain should never be forced to have a bad loadout (ex 2 gunners). I'm picky and stubborn and don't mix well with players that don't cooperate. This leads to inefficiency and universal frustration. The system is broken, and if matchmaking is the fix, then I hope it arrives quickly.
--- End quote ---

So you're saying that no matter how the game is made, including the fact that the captain literally doesn't choose loadouts, the captain chooses loadouts.

Cool story.

Matchmaking will be fixing the problem of mid-match joining, because that won't be happening with the matchmaking system. I'm not sure what that means for matches in progress when a captain leaves. It won't miraculously give captains more control over the loadouts for their crew. In some ways, what I've heard makes it sound like you'll be given less of an ability to stall things.

Richard LeMoon:
Matchmaking will solve nothing as far as wrong loadouts. Once it comes out, if someone refuses to change, I will just leave the lobby. Having nothing invested in getting into a lobby makes it easy to quit.

BlackenedPies:
There may be cases when a captain is requesting a ridiculous loadout, but again his crew don't have to join. In that case he has 2 options: to wait for someone who will take his loadout, or to start with AI. The first option will piss off the lobby (and he might be trolling). This is a special case but not the issue here. I have never run into a problem where a captain is not starting the match because he is waiting on a bad loadout. If a crew disagree with a loadout and refuse to take it then they should leave. Simple as that. If they want to be stubborn and stick around then they're delaying the match. This may be a minority of the cases but I have never run into it.

Whether or not the request is reasonable, the captain has the right to stall the match. If the captain has an unreasonable request then the lobby should be mad, and the captain might be trolling. Again, I don't run into this problem. Captains generally make reasonable requests so that people will follow them. If they make unreasonable requests then crew are less likely to follow them.

I have run into players not understanding english 4 times that I know of: French Polish and Russian. Google translate works if you're translating words or phrases, and global chat speaks many languages. This is a special case and it's not the problem.

Let's focus on the vast majority of the cases: players who refuse to cooperate or give explanation. Players who don't cooperate and prefer to frustrate people and waste time are trolls. Not readying is the only defense captains have against them because there is no kick feature and the report abuse button doesnt work. I am glad to see captains refuse to ready because of a troll on their crew, and it would be extremely rude to attempt to start the match.

All experienced players understand this, and I have sat in plenty of lobbies for extended periods just waiting on someone's crew member. Not starting is the right thing to do because otherwise you are giving in to trolling. A captain cannot be expected to ready up with a bad loadout in the same way that they can't be expected to ready with 2 gunners or an extra pilot. Having a bad loadout is often as detrimental as having an extra gunner.

I'm not trying to argue about special cases. I'm discussing the vast majority of cases that I see every day.

If I join a ship with a bad loadout or as an extra pilot/gunner and the pilot wants me to switch and I refuse, then I am trolling. If the pilot refuses to start the match with me then he is being responsible. A captain has the right, ability, and responsibility to not start the match with a troll in his crew.

If a captain makes a reasonable request, you should either cooperate or leave. This should be a universal rule. If you don't cooperate, then expect the captain to stall the match. Congratulations, you are now trolling.

I'm not saying that the captain has control over his loadouts, but the community agrees that the captain chooses loadouts. Allowing crew to ready up would be a disaster and ruin the experience. The community would not endorse it. Crews don't get to choose what captain they want, but they can leave a ship if they are not happy with it.


"Sometimes no matter how much ADVISING, EXPLAINING, or in my case PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL a captain uses there will be players who refuse to cooperate. It is the captains job to set up the ship to have the best chance at victory. I have no respect for players who work against the captain in doing this. Even though there are no mechanics to directly punish a player for working against the captain and crew we are under no obligation to help that player learn the game. Move to a different ship, tell the lobby #player name# is not cooperating. Hopefully they will rage quit and you can take your ship back next game."
-HamsterIV

He is describing trolling, and that's what I'm trying to discuss.

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