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Suggestion: crew joining during matches

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obliviondoll:

--- Quote from: BlackenedSkies on August 08, 2014, 09:20:46 am ---Contrary to common belief, the captain chooses crew loadouts not the crew. If a crew doesn't want to bring the captain's loadout then they can join a different ship. If a captain doesn't want a crew's loadout, then they shouldn't be forced to have it.
--- End quote ---

Contrary to your belief, this is blatantly and demonstrably false.

1. There is no mechanic to kick someone from your ship.
2. There is no mechanic allowing a captain to forcibly alter a crew member's loadout.
3. There IS a mechanic allowing individual players, whether captain or not, to alter their own loadouts freely.

If you get someone on your ship with a loadout you don't like, you have the right (and as a captain, the responsibility) to advise them of possible changes that would work better. As new players, it is their responsibility to listen and take a more experienced player's advice, but they have the right to ignore you and do whatever they want as well.

Public matches are still public. Open-level matches are open-level. Novice players have the right to join open matches, but should expect to get stomped into the ground if they don't learn REALLY fast. And novices who aren't learning should expect (and will recieve) a measure of ridicule appropriate to the level of failure they demonstrate.

If you don't like your crew's loadouts, ADVISE them of what you THINK they should be using. EXPLAIN WHY you want them to change. If you make a good case, a competent player will listen, and even most new players are smart enough to take advice when they're aware that they're new. People who don't listen, regardless of whether they're captain or crew, are failing to communicate properly.

If there's no room for flexibility on a ship's crew, and the captain is being a jerk to other crew members, I WILL make a point of supporting the crew's rights over the captain's authority, and I WILL make a point of changing to a loadout that ISN'T what the captain ordered (but I'll make sure it's something I can use effectively).

I listen to my crew when they advise me of things I could do to help. If I get a gunner on my Junker who sees that I have no Hades and asks for one because he's good with it, I'll consider reshuffling the weapons to suit. If I get an engineer who doesn't have any firefighting gear, I'll ask them to bring some, and I'll explain that having something to manage fire is a crucial part of the role. If they choose not to listen, then our ship burning and dying will be resting heavily on that engineer and I'll make a point of mentioning it every time a fire kills something they could have extinguished or saved with chemspray. If I decide to pull out my (very rare) Goldfish, I'll explain why I'm bringing the loadout I've chosen, and I'll listen to my gunner's advice on main gun, and my engineers' advice on what secondary guns to load. I won't necessarily take their advice, and I might point out why I think my way is better and not change, but I will listen.

If you can't listen to your crew and at least consider their opinions when they differ from your personal preferences, then you're doing it wrong.

HamsterIV:
Sometimes no matter how much ADVISING, EXPLAINING, or in my case PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL a captain uses there will be players who refuse to cooperate. It is the captains job to set up the ship to have the best chance at victory. I have no respect for players who work against the captain in doing this. Even though there are no mechanics to directly punish a player for working against the captain and crew we are under no obligation to help that player learn the game. Move to a different ship, tell the lobby #player name# is not cooperating. Hopefully they will rage quit and you can take your ship back next game.

BlackenedPies:
Crew are able to decide what loadouts they bring, but the captain is the only one who can start the match.
There is a correct ammo for a gun and circumstance which will be based on the pilot's tactics and the gunner's skill.
If my pilot tells me to bring an ammo that I don't think will be max effective, I will explain why, and if the pilot still wants me to bring it then I will bring it. Simple as that.
 
I often let the crew pick positions and I give them practice on important/difficult guns. I'm one of the few people who gives lumberjacks to players who have never used it before just to give them the experience. Sometimes I give options on the ship/loadout, but the problem I have is not with players who know what they are doing. My problem is with players who deliberately not take the correct loadout and give no explanation for why.

When a new crew member joins in lobby I have a pretty standard script that I use (usually in private msgs), and goes something like this (depending on their class and their current loadout):
hello _ please bring _ tools and _ ammo.
you will be _ position
_ ammo is for _. dont use _ ammo because
aim at their _
I wait for a response and if there is none,
if you dont want to bring those, please join a different ship.
If I don't get any response then I'll probably tell them that I'm not starting the match until they bring it.
If I'm doing something wrong, I don't know what it is.

For most guns I don't care much about the ammo, I'll start the match and tell them to use regular. The important part is the tools. I am very picky and I won't start start a match with a mallet gunner or ineffective buff loadout no matter what the enemy team is. It's my fault for being picky but they don't have to be on my ship.

Often, they are attempting to get achievements. If they say the need _ ammo then I might give them the appropriate gun. But if they want tool achievements they can join a different ship. A buff kit for engi is great, but only with a wrench (except on 3 engi builds). And I will only accept a gunner with a wrench. Again, they don't have to join my ship if they want to use a bad loadout. Simple as that.

For standard builds there are only 2 possible correct engineer loadout combinations (reg reg or reg buff). I'm very picky so I need them to be right (although I would never force someone to bring buffs). I will gladly educate any player and I regularly give suggestions to the enemy captains and crew. Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. I love to teach people about the game.

I will stall a match from starting until either the insubordinate or I decide to leave. This can be very frustrating for everyone in the lobby. Every captain who cares about their loadout has run into this problem innumerable times before where a crew members refuses to bring the stuff or change class etc. It's a waste of time and I don't see how it can be prevented. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I'm not the only one who can't always convince their crew.

I guess my main point is the captains have some amount of control over loadouts in lobby but have none in match. If someone joins during the match with a bad loadout, 9.8 times out of 10 they will refuse to change it and rejoin. The only way to prevent this problem is to wait until you have a full crew in lobby. My suggestion for the accept/reject feature was only a suggestion. Of course it will not be implemented in GoI, but maybe it will in a future game.

But what is the point of allowing extra gunners or pilots to join during the match? Sometimes they listen and leave and switch class, but sometimes they decide to stay. A ship without at least 2 engineers is a death sentence. In my opinion, joining as an extra gunner/pilot and refusing to leave constitutes trolling. There's no point in allowing a second pilot or gunner to join, so why help facilitate trolling?

obliviondoll:

--- Quote from: BlackenedSkies on August 08, 2014, 04:03:59 pm ---When a new crew member joins in lobby I have a pretty standard script that I use (usually in private msgs), and goes something like this (depending on their class and their current loadout):
hello _ please bring _ tools and _ ammo.
you will be _ position
_ ammo is for _. dont use _ ammo because
aim at their _
I wait for a response and if there is none,
if you dont want to bring those, please join a different ship.
If I don't get any response then I'll probably tell them that I'm not starting the match until they bring it.
If I'm doing something wrong, I don't know what it is.
--- End quote ---

You don't know?

"if you dont want to bring those, please join a different ship."

This is a fair request. But it's a request, not an order with any authority.

"If I don't get any response then I'll probably tell them that I'm not starting the match until they bring it."

THIS is what you're doing wrong. You have one crew member who's causing a - probably minor - problem for you. Yes, you're the pilot and the captain, but you're also ONLY ONE CREW MEMBER. At this stage, with you being mildly annoyed, that's ONE player in the lobby who's annoyed. If you get over yourself, accept that there's only so much you can do to work around an uncommunicative player, and start, that's all the frustration the lobby will see. If you try and pressure someone - maybe someone who can't understand English, and has no clue what you're on about - and hold things up for half an hour or more, then people start leaving. Congratulations, YOU have annoyed EVERYONE. You're trying to spite someone when you don't know their reason for not answering or obeying you, and you're hurting the entire lobby. Instead of just one person being annoyed, it's now 16, 24, or maybe even 32 people who are annoyed.


--- Quote ---Again, they don't have to join my ship if they want to use a bad loadout. Simple as that.
--- End quote ---

And THIS is what you're doing wrong. Request, and if the other person doesn't listen, DEAL WITH IT.


--- Quote ---I will stall a match from starting until either the insubordinate or I decide to leave. This can be very frustrating for everyone in the lobby. Every captain who cares about their loadout has run into this problem innumerable times before where a crew members refuses to bring the stuff or change class etc. It's a waste of time and I don't see how it can be prevented. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I'm not the only one who can't always convince their crew.
--- End quote ---

THIS.
CAN.
BE.
VERY.
FRUSTRATING.
FOR.
EVERYONE.

You say you love teaching people about the game? You love playing too, clearly, or you wouldn't be as experienced as you are. You wouldn't be a high-level player in a well-respected clan. And you wouldn't be someone who I felt slightly guilty arguing with because I'm still a new guy here.

So, from that perspective of being a good fan, which would you prefer?

1. Everyone in the entire lobby (16 - 32 players) gets angry because in almost every match, there's one or two captains who need EVERYTHING to be PERFECT because it's THEIR ship and therefore THEIR loadouts for everyone. The match never starts until someone leaves - either the captain or their "insubordinate" who's there to have fun. They aren't there to try and ruin the game for you. They just want to PLAY.

2. One, maybe two captains get a little annoyed at not having their ship set up PERFECTLY the way they want it to be. They get some idiot who brings a spanner, mallet and buff hammer and rages when the fire extinguisher user decided to manage fires and repairs on other parts while they wait for the cooldown to end, then when they get back, the idiot with no firefighting gear has put the hull on cooldown again, so they run off to fix what they CAN fix in the meantime, rinse, repeat, and somehow it's "not my fault".

Yeah, it can be annoying when you're the one stuck dealing with THAT GUY (or girl). The above example actually happened to me the other day. But to be perfectly fair, it's you and people like you causing the "Lobbies of Icarus" problem. There are people who need their crew to do things how THEY want, and no other way. I've seen captains who have demanded things that make no sense. I've seen one captain who demanded burst rounds on an engineer who was only going to have gatling guns in reach. You say he has the right to hold up a match starting because is crew refuse to listen? I say he shouldn't have that right for the same reason you shouldn't. And it's nothing to do with either of you being wrong about what's best for your crew.

I actually think that crew members should be able to ready up independent of their captain, and if everyone on a ship except the captain is ready, that should mark the ship as ready as if the captain was ok with things. If your crew just want the game to start and not have a lobby to sit around in for ages, and you can't deal with that, YOU can leave. One person inconvenienced is better than 15+ who just want to get into a battle in the sky.

For competitive matches, or when you're running with friends who are happy with how you do things, great. Have all the control you want. You'll get well-reasoned discussions when you propose a change to someone's loadout and they disagree. You might learn something from letting a teammate do something different from your usual. You might teach them something instead. For public matches with crew you don't know, stop refusing to play and start playing. You'll get more time in-game, you'll see more crazy and random things, and you might sometimes have just as much fun as you do when things go smoothly.

I've been in a match where one of the captains spent half his time running around the ship loading lochnagar rounds into all the flamethrowers, and telling the crew to use the lochangar instead of switching ammo. Every time they disobeyed, he left the helm with the ship at full throttle, and took over their gun to switch back. It was a Squid, so leaving the ship at full throttle was a crazy move. At the end of the match, everyone was asking the captain to never do that again, but his whole crew - AND their friendly ship - were laughing. It wasn't just crazy, it was flat-out stupid. But it was still something everyone had fun with.

You're playing a game.
Games are about fun.

Sometimes, I think people forget that. When you're not with your friends, sure, go ahead, teach people and give them advice. But if they don't listen, DEAL WITH IT. Get out into the friendly skies, laugh when your flamethrower gets blown up firing a lochnagar shot. HAVE FUN.

Being entirely serious here, I'm worried about the plan to use "matchmaking" (details unspecified) in place of the current lobby system. They've implied that lobbies are going away somehow, and I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing, but that's a story for another thread.

Imagine:
Once again:


--- Quote from: Imagine on August 08, 2014, 11:22:06 am ---This will go away when matchmaking system is brought to live.

--- End quote ---

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