Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.

[Wundsalz]

currently the gunner is rarely used because of 3 major reasons:
1.) many guns only need one ammunition type to operate properly. Others run fine with normal rounds + x.
2.) gunners de-facto don't have access to the buff hammer. this grants engineers a major advantage over gunners.
3.) gunners suck ass when it comes to maintenance. They always need an engineer to babysit them in case shit hits the fan (fire/strong disable fire)

The first problem can probably be addressed by ammunition changes (and maybe by adding normal rounds to the ammo pool rather than granting it everyone by default). If there's a reason for almost every weapon to bring two different ammo types, gunners will be more attractive. messing around with weapons might help as well here. E.g. if you increased the gate range and spread gunners with heavy/greased clips would become more attractive for gats.
regarding the 2nd and third problem:
[blasphemy]gunners with two engineering tools?![/blasphemy]
gunners would be able to either bring a buff hammer or take care of fires themselves. They could finally do something useful during reload times.
On some ships dual-gunner builds might be a viable option (e.g. long range galleon).

[awkm]

quick thoughts...

1) Guns should always have more than 1 ammo choice.  Tell me of the guns that don't have more 1 and I will fix it.
2) Fix buff hammer, we have an idea already but may take some time to put in
3) Make engineers even better at maintenance?  We have a new engineer tool that is coming... something that helps mitigate damage.  Think of it as a more protective version of buff.

[Mezhu]

I'd rather have engineers not be allowed to carry an ammo type at all than gunners carry two engineer tools, just throwing that out. I'm not suggesting it, but if it is that crucial to enforce a gunner on every ship this feels better than a lot of the suggestions I've so far read.

[Richard LeMoon]

Class	Ammo	Pilot tools	Engineer tools	Spotting tools
Pilot	2	3	1	1
Gunner	4	1	1	1
Engineer	2	1	3	1

* almost never used

It is easy to see what the issue is here. All other classes are 50% as efficient as gunner at gunning. However, gunners are only 33% as efficient as all other classes at doing what they do. With careful consideration, I am forced to agree that Normal has to be an ammo choice and change the equip-able to:

Class	Ammo	Pilot tools	Engineer tools	Spotting tools
Pilot	1	3	1	1
Gunner	3	1	1	1
Engineer	1	1	3	1

OR, increase all the other skills in all classes to have the same ratio, and give each a default tool. Normal ammo, Pipe Wrench, Spotting Scope. That would make each class about 50% as well equipped as the other classes. A second gunner would not be instant loss, a second pilot would not be (as) rage inducing, and a pipe wrench added to engies just makes fine-tuned timing repairs more of a skill. Everyone would have three items to select from while running around, and four to select from while plying their trade. Technically, engies would have five with the spyglass, but if you are spotting things, you are not fixing, so I don't really count it. Or it could be replaced with some new fluff pilot tool that can only be used on the helm. Like ship coms, or something, where only the person on the helm can talk to the other ship.

Class	Ammo	Pilot tools	Engineer tools
Pilot	2	4	2
Gunner	4	2	2
Engineer	2	2	4

[Wundsalz]

I'm not comfortable with using the quantity of equipment to compare the quality of roles. A ammunition choice doesn't equal the value of an engineering tool choice. It's almost impossible not to put all 3 engineering tools to good use, while often don't or only marginally benefit from their 3rd ammo choice.

1) Guns should always have more than 1 ammo choice.  Tell me of the guns that don't have more 1 and I will fix it.

merc - charged
all pure explosive weapons (with the exception of the heavy flak) perform better with one ammo choice + buff. This grants the highest damage output in the brief time frame when the hull is down.

[Richard LeMoon]

Removing gun damage buffs would still make dual engies more useful. With more ammo choices and change in buff behavior (I don't think it should increase damage), I don't think we would need to change the quantity of items. Though I am pondering just how it would pan out if they went to 422 on all classes. However, if one engineer is suddenly even more effective at fixing and buffing, or complete flame suppression at the cost of repair or rebuild, and a gunner is moderately more so, would that make twin gunner settups more viable and common?

Re: merc - Heatsink is the only other good option on a merc, and makes it a little more useful close up. Most of the time I bring a merc, though, I have the gunner bring another ammo type or two for another gun. I like to move my gunners around a lot on my ships, though, and keep the engies in one spot.

[Milevan Faent]

The merc has more options with the new ammo in Dev App.

[-Mad Maverick-]

1) Guns should always have more than 1 ammo choice.  Tell me of the guns that don't have more 1 and I will fix it.

almost all of them... look sure you can do fun little niche nuance things with a spectrum of ammos but in general a pilot is able to create and maintain the contexts that are most useful for each gun and the selected single ammo type...

[The Djinn]

Wait. Hold up. (Remove wrenches as a selectable engineering tool, and everyone gets a wrench free, similar to normal ammo in guns)

Yep. And I'd also say give everyone a free slot with either the Rangefinder or the Spyglass in it.

Suddenly there's more options for gunners (Wrench/Buff? Wrench/Extinguisher? Wrench/Chem Spray?), more for Pilots (Wrench/Spanner for emergency repairs? Wrench/Mallet to keep the Junker's Balloon alive? Wrench/Chem or Wrench/Buff for a Pyra's hull?)...and you also open up the ability to have teammates using Rangefinders more often (as you won't lose the Spyglass), pilots able to spot for their team themselves and, perhaps most interestingly, crewmembers able to take less commonly used piloting tools (Tar, Impact Bumpers, Drogue Chute) and running to the helm to use the needed tools.

You could run your Gunner with Moonshine or Kerosene when running a close-range attack ship, have him close the distance, and switch to a Hydrogen/Chute Vent/Phoenix Claw pilot for close-range evasive maneuvering, for example.

I think that would be really damn cool.

[Richard LeMoon]

I used to have my galleon engie take moonshine for that, until I always used moonshine myself.

If you look at my tables and such, that is exactly what I was saying with the 422 ratio. 4 of your class tools, 2 of each of the others, 1 in each class is default and unselectable.

[GeoRmr]

I used to have my galleon engie take moonshine for that, until I always used moonshine myself.

If you look at my tables and such, that is exactly what I was saying with the 422 ratio. 4 of your class tools, 2 of each of the others, 1 in each class is default and unselectable.

Thanks Richard, that table is much clearer than my 3 waffling paragraphs!

[Sammy B. T.]

This starts with a faulty premise, though it is understandable to have. The idea that gunner means categorically better at shooting vs engineer being categorically better at repairing, is missing the nuance of the game. Having more tools makes a crew member more equipped to deal with a diversity of situations. However, many if not most guns in this game don't need a diversity of situations. A gatling gun is trying to strip armor very quickly at close range. An Artemis is trying to take out as many components as possible at any range. A mortar is trying to destroy perma hull as quickly as possible during the armor break window. These roles can generally be done with one ammo.

Now consider the weapons that you benefit from gunners. these are generally weapons that need to engage at different lengths or different roles. Hwachas switching between heavy and burst, Lumberjacks going from Lesmok to Lochnagar, even the short ranged H Carronade does well having heavy for long range or disable and charged for the damage. The gunner isn't making the gun better per se in as much as they are making the gun more diverse.

You want the gunner to get play time, then there needs to be more rewards for diversification. More weapons with extreme arcs, more ammos that dramatically chance how a gun works.

At the end of the day, it makes sense for there to not be a lot of ammo diversification across the ship. A rifleman doesn't have a plethora of different ammos for his gun whereas a mortar crew will have plenty. Naval ships will always have more people crewing and keeping the ship alive than gunners manning the weapons. Even the air force will have teams of people on the ground supporting the pilots. Most of any military is support. It makes sense that these wooden things, suspended from hot air balloons, being shot at weapons that are clearly more advanced than the armor of the ship, has more guys on board to keep the ship alive than guys on board to kill the enemy.

[Richard LeMoon]

Just bringing one extra ammo type and flying to accommodate that ammo type is really boring and predictable. You can't do too many unexpected things.

Just to clarify, I don't play to win. I play to have fun and do crazy things with strange ship builds. Doing that, I more often win, without worrying over the best current meta.

[WafflesToo]

I'd rather have engineers not be allowed to carry an ammo type at all than gunners carry two engineer tools, just throwing that out. I'm not suggesting it, but if it is that crucial to enforce a gunner on every ship this feels better than a lot of the suggestions I've so far read.

This sounds like a good idea to me, seconded.

[Crafeksterty]

There have been some pretty nice ammo suggestions that make you want to have a gunner. Instead of balance, they straight up buff the gunners  slots.

Basically, the engineers slot for ammo should be a bad thing. The current selection of ammo does not do it. The gunner choosing this selection of ammo has more freedom but nothing that makes those extra slots worth while to have.

The pilots tools dont count as no one else can jump on the helm.
While every one can jump out and do a bit of repairing.
And everyone can shoot a gun.

The problem that, we obviously see is that we can do enough and in a desirable ammount with just one ammo type.
What if there are some vastly different ammo that make up for gunners? Some vast diffrences that make you want atleast 1 gunner.
1 Gunner on each ship is enough to be necessary for the fix.


Nerfing pilots and engineers, is actualy not the answer. Sure it helps the gunner but it doesnt make the gunner more of what he is.
And thats the reliefe of having more options for the situation, or more options to better control what is happening.

Ammo like charged, greased, heatsink, incindiary, burst are way too mundane, in a good or bad way. The only ammo that really kicks things up differently are the heavy clip, Lesmok, Lochnagar.

You will want more of THOSE types of ammo. The mundane ammo are close to being default. And that is the issue, how these default like ammunition can be easily used without wanting to switch out. Instead of removing Default ammo, you will want to enhance the use of default because the ammo choice is way too situational. Right now it isnt. Only few hit it spot on.