Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.

[pandatopia]

Er, isn't the easiest solution to just give gunners buff hammer, always, as a free second slot? This will really focus on the skill of the gunner in prioritizing reload (gotta know your gun to hop in and ammo change at last second), midfight buffs/repairs, etc.

Alternatively the suggestion in the first page where wrench was a free tool to everyone.

You don't have to do all this adding new stuff or rebalancing old.

[GeoRmr]

+1 panda

Or a limited hammer that can't buff other components, only guns.

[awkm]

The easiest thing regarding Engineers and Buff Hammer is to tweaks what Buff Hammer does to guns.

Adding stuff like slots and whatnot is not easy.

[-Mad Maverick-]

then do not adjust the buff hammer without creating a gunner exclusive variant

[Omniraptor]

Yes please, have buff hammer apply no effect to guns. People will still use gungineers on gat/mortar and probably on artemis, but otherwise it would be a good step towards making gunners more relevant on light guns

[Richard LeMoon]

I already suggested making the buff hammer increase gun rotation speed and max HP rather than increase damage. Still very useful on the rest of the ship and guns, but not enough to replace all gunners with buff engineers. Simple and effective.

The adding slots/dual slot thing was really a "whateva'" idea while I practiced my image skills. Not really serious, but helpful for brainstorming.

[SirNotlag]

Sorry to go off on a tangent but I stumbled apon this relevant little gem on the internet right after reading through this thread and could not stop laughing.

http://9gag.com/gag/aRQdMGy

hehe poor poor Muse.

[Dementio]

The adding slots/dual slot thing was really a "whateva'" idea while I practiced my image skills. Not really serious, but helpful for brainstorming.

I feel insulted.

This idea would have allowed to even have 2 gunners if not all 3 of them on 1 ship, maximizing the power of different ammo types compared to 3 engineers maximizing repair/buff/anti fire power.
A little tuning for the implemention of the idea and you would have your 4 ammo types and 2 engineering tools for gunner and 2 ammo types and 4 engineering tools for engineers, as answer to "the engineer has actually more than 1 ammo type" and as an opposite to removing the default ammo from every class, which many were so fond of.

I do believe that putting thought into that one is worth the time (if putting thought into a game is worth at all), but whateva

[Richard LeMoon]

So, while pondering something, another something occurred to me that might make gunners a bit more desirable. What if simply being on a gun made it reload faster? Not a class specific passive. Just if anyone is on a gun, it reloads faster. Pilots and engineers have other things to do while guns are loading. Gunners, not so much. Even a buff gungineer gets off the gun to keep it buffed. This would be more of a hotseat buff. If your ship is doing well with no repairs to be made, all guns would load a bit faster just by keeping someone in the seat.

[awkm]

@Richard LeMoon

Very interesting...

[SirNotlag]

That is an interesting idea Richard. Ive mentioned the idea for adding a gunner tool that increases the reload some way or another (its in the ammo discussion page 3, 4, and 5 if you want to look it up I hate to repeat myself) but giving that ability to everyone is definitely interesting. As you mentioned engineers and buffers have better things to do than sit on the guns so it would help out the gunners the most and it sticks with Muse's idea of having all classes equal.
The only issue I see with it is it supports the gungineers just as much as gunners so it doesn't really shift the balance very much other than increasing the dps of all ship builds.

[GreyTea]

How about, 2 versions of buff hammers,

1, For gunners that does the extra 20% damage on weapons, only usable by gunners,

2, works on components only usable by engineers,

Think it might be hard to code in because i think weapons are classed as components but it might solve a lot of issues, if you want the extra damage you sacrifice the repair ability, sounds like a fair trade off, and your 2 engineers can still run with main and buff,

 

[awkm]

Gunners don't have gunner tools.  They have gunner ammo.

That's the rule for now until ammo testing is determined to be finished.

[MacBen]

Yeah, but Guns have a certain role (damage type) in a certain situatione (range) where they shine and everyone can bring the ammo that is the best fit.
Many ships field more guns then gunners(and gungineers) so its often more easy to jump to an unmanned gun more suitable for the new situation
them tweeking  your current gun to work out of its usuall comfort zone.
at least easier then deciding between a buffhammer OR a repairtool for your gun.

I have to agree that something that encourages a dedicated gunner to stay at his gun instead of leaving it in order to buff it or or use another gun would  makes 3 ammo types more desirable.

Not a well thought out Idea,
 but how about some kind of accustoming stacks with a max cap?
The longer you stay at this gun the more you get used to it, improving accuracy and reload speed.

It leaves the Gunner with the Question:
Shall I leave the gun and loose those buff stacks?
With a pilot that keeps me in arc + range & and an engeneer that keeps me buffed + repaired I ,would rather stay to min/max its potential and bring different ammo types to be able to shoot efficient in many situations.

TimeToKill might shring with increased reload speed, but would this be a bad thing since it gives gun-disabling weapons more power (broken weapons loose all stacks) without making the disabled ship's crew feel more helpless/frustrated.

[SirNotlag]

Gunners don't have gunner tools.  They have gunner ammo.

That's the rule for now until ammo testing is determined to be finished.

Yes Yes you have said that plenty of times before, even tools that work like ammo will not be accepted. Doesn't mean I am going to stop suggesting it, just that I won't expect it to be implemented.