Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.

[Dementio]

Give the gunner a second engineering slot.

Second engineering slot? Or do you mean extra default engineering tool for everyone?

(Remove wrenches as a selectable engineering tool, and everyone gets a wrench free, similar to normal ammo in guns)

I actually meant an extra slot, but your idea sounds enticing too.
Non-gunners have 2 ammo types, non-engis have 2 engineering tools.
Problem is only that there are so few engineering tools so I don't know how good that actually will be. While a gunner can actually make use of default ammo, I don't know how much use a pipe wrench is for a (e.g.) mallet/spanner engineer.

[awkm]

Some interesting ideas here.  I want to make everyone aware that these ideas are very difficult to implement without substantial changes to UI, database structures, and general code implementation.  We love making games and you know that we always want to make this one better (seriously, we've had so many patches) but we also run a business... we need to look at the path of least resistance and try to test there first.  We're a team of 13 people so we need to make sure that we don't waste any effort.

I encourage everyone to focus their energy to help us discuss New Ammo and tweaks to Old Ammo in the following thread:

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4079.90.html

Furthermore, if you have access to Dev App then there are 4 new ammo types to be tested.  They are quite unbalanced, some even a little broken, but they all give us an idea of what we can do to encourage users to take advantage of the 3 ammo slots that only Gunners have.  That's what we can take action on immediately without drastically changing any part of the game.  And if you want access to Dev App and to Dev App Forums, email keyvias@musegames.com

This is not saying 'no' to these ideas but rather that we can use your efforts right now somewhere else.  When we have tested all solutions that can be tested, in the order of their difficulty of implement, we will move on to the next idea and these are still on the list.  While you may not agree with our current tests, we'd love to see your feedback on them and feel like you can still make a big contribution to the game.

Again, thank you for everyone's suggestions.  I just want to make it clear what the pipeline looks like and how we approach problems like these.

[Dementio]

I actually wonder how much "bad" feedback is needed to make MUSE go for another solution.

[awkm]

Well if it's completely unbalanced or ultimately prevents people from playing the game then we'll fix it.

In the case of the Engineer vs. Gunner, it's been around for a very long time.  Is it game breaking and prevents people from playing?  Not really.  It's one of the reasons it took this long to evaluate.  At this point it's closer to being polish than fix.  We don't mind boats with 4 engineers, we allow you to do it.  But the issue is that a lot of people don't see the point of bringing a gunner.  It's a finer issue than the server is broken or Field Gun is OP.  There are ships that do have gunners, though, and see the advantages of having one due to the ammo types on top of a well-timed buff.  I want to expand that decision space further.

Gunner vs. Engineer isn't broken, not by a long shot.  It can be improved, though.  There are other things that are actually broken and that's where the attention needs to be put.... e.g. servers exploding this week.

[GeoRmr]

Just to clarify, adding new ammo is AWESOME!!!
But please DON'T PRETEND that its going to solve your gunner engineer 'problem', at-least accept that the gunner will remain a niche class  unless/untill SUBSTANTIAL changes are made.

Some interesting ideas here.  I want to make everyone aware that these ideas are very difficult to implement without substantial changes to UI, database structures, and general code implementation. 

I thought your current stance on my solution is that it in fact wouldn't be difficult to implement at all, but that you don't want to implement it based solely on design paradigm.

"...it'll be little to very little coding..." ~ awkm

[awkm]

It highly depends on exactly what you're trying to do and must be evaluated on a case by case basis for each tool.  Some will be easy.  Some will be hard.  But overall the ideas skew towards the hard.

The quote taken is an answer to a specific case.

Also we don't know if ammo will solve it.  We also don't know if "substantial" changes will solve it.  Each solution will bring ups and downs and they all need to be evaluated objectively.  We can't go in with any assumption regarding any solution, only a goal and timeline of when the tests can happen.

[JareelSkaj]

Random idea:
Make Medium Guns - like Hellhund - possible to operate only by gunners.

[Milevan Faent]

Random idea:
Make Medium Guns - like Hellhund - possible to operate only by gunners.

.... Hellhund? Assuming you're talking about Heavy guns, the answer would still be hell no. I don't like the idea at all.

[JareelSkaj]

Wiki says these are medium guns.

Anyway - It's good cause it encourages mixed crews and reassures gunners got their own role where they are irreplaceable. Bad thing obviously is that it creates first kind of items that cannot be used by other classes, but in general IMHO it makes sense.

[Milevan Faent]

Wiki says these are medium guns.

Anyway - It's good cause it encourages mixed crews and reassures gunners got their own role where they are irreplaceable. Bad thing obviously is that it creates first kind of items that cannot be used by other classes, but in general IMHO it makes sense.

The wiki is so out of date it's not even funny. Everything on the wiki is OLD. Don't use it for anything. Regardless of your opinion though, the devs have outright stated they will not do these kinds of things. Also, heavy guns are only on 3 ships in the game, so your idea will not help enough to matter, and could instead lead to 3 ships never being used. Also, one of those ships REQUIRES an engineer on a gun for it to work, or the ship suffers from having 2 gunners (which is always going to be BAD no matter what).

[Dementio]

You can trust the wiki on that one though. Heavy guns are actually Medium guns on the others are light guns. I don't remember where, but I somewhere read that Heavy guns are too big for the ships we have in GoIO...

Regardless, I too disagree with the idea of having the gunner being the only class that can use the Medium guns. It would only count for 3 ships, since only 3 out of 7 have at least 1 medium gun and the Galleon would suffer from this, so it would only be a reasonable answer for 2 out of 7 ships...

[SirNotlag]

It highly depends on exactly what you're trying to do and must be evaluated on a case by case basis for each tool.  Some will be easy.  Some will be hard.  But overall the ideas skew towards the hard.

The quote taken is an answer to a specific case.

Also we don't know if ammo will solve it.  We also don't know if "substantial" changes will solve it.  Each solution will bring ups and downs and they all need to be evaluated objectively.  We can't go in with any assumption regarding any solution, only a goal and timeline of when the tests can happen.

I've already given more than my fair share of cents in the Ammo discussion, even a couple ideas, I still stand behind my idea for a reloading tool for the gunners (if you want to read into the details go to the ammo discussion pages 3, 4, and 5 have comments form me about it). Its simple does not affect too many mechanics and no touches to the UI so it should not be much harder to implement than any new form of ammo.

I unfortunately cant think of any tools that could work similarly with the gunner just sitting on the and selecting it except maybe increasing the weapons armour and health which could also be achieved from ammo if it were programmed to, or perhaps a weapon that locks the aim in place for a few seconds when activated but reduces all recoil to 0 like heavy clip but can be used with any ammo type.

The game is by no means broken in my opinion, I love the fact that 3 engineers, or 2 engineers and a buffer can be a completely viable build, and i hope the game still allows that in the future. However I would also like to see 1 engineer and 2 gunners being a viable build on sniper ships or something which is not the case currently.

More ammo types seems like a good idea to me, especially if they are highly powerful but specialized, but i would also like to see a tool or two for the gunner to differentiate them more from the engineers when behind the gun. Just having ammo can usually be used by the engineers and ammo types that damage the gun do kinda support engineers more as they can repair faster (as others have already mentioned).

[awkm]

I want to respect the choice to have all engineers.  That's fine.  But like how something becomes meta... I don't really want that because it means the decision space is collapsing.  On the other side, it's advisable not to run a boat with mostly gunners or at least I've never seen or heard of a ship run extremely successfully with this build (I'd love to hear from these people who think it's awesome).  To solve this, maybe there also needs to be really really really extreme repair tools lol.  Instant rebuild tool, instant repair tool.  Wonder what would happen ahahahhaah.

Oh gosh.  Can of worms.

[GeoRmr]

I want to respect the choice to have all engineers.  That's fine.  But like how something becomes meta... I don't really want that because it means the decision space is collapsing.  On the other side, it's advisable not to run a boat with mostly gunners or at least I've never seen or heard of a ship run extremely successfully with this build (I'd love to hear from these people who think it's awesome).  To solve this, maybe there also needs to be really really really extreme repair tools lol.  Instant rebuild tool, instant repair tool.  Wonder what would happen ahahahhaah.

Oh gosh.  Can of worms.

Desert Scrap Pyramidion with 2 front Phobos works better with 2 gunners and 1 engineer.

[Richard LeMoon]

Twin Lumber Galleon works best with two gunners. Really, almost any long range ship works better with two gunners, as long as you can kill them before they get close. The exception to short range is a mine ship. Works best with two gunners.