Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.
macmacnick:
Meh, you hinted towards that earlier discussion you made a few months back regarding forgoing normal ammo as a default.
Crafeksterty:
I did, but since i saw what muse can do with the ammo i changed my mind.
That has been a thing lately i feel.
When the Spire was getting a Buff i was against turning the side guns forward. Because i saw so many potential builds that break ships to smitherines.
Well... I break ships to smitherines but i still see people having trouble with the ship. And my suggestion was something very Mild in comparison.
The spire buff was very fun and changes the Spires intended playstyle for the better (Im Admiting). While my suggestion was something that wasnt fun but could make the spire healthier. In comparison im happy with the gun arc changes more than my suggestion.
For this, things kinda happen the same way. Taking away the default ammo i realised is a very boring choice. An EASY choice but boring. It doesnt change the gunner but simply nerfs the engineer and pilot. So why not have the ammo be interresting? Make gunners be powerfull. Not because of one ammo type, but how several limit the gun for specific situations so one MUST change ammo. That way engineers will only have one choice and must revert to default while gunners can in every situation make the gun usefull.
On the Call for Ammo discussion, im really liking the more utility type ammo that increases the gun health, or makes its shots invisible, or blind the enemy ship. These are types of ammo you dont really want to use ALL the time because they have detrimental effects also. As a gunner its no biggie cus you can change to something more fitting.
Caprontos:
I honestly think people are greatly over valuing normal ammo..
All ships have 4 spots.. a pilot spot - two engineer spots - a gunner spot.. That's the basic "should be default" crew..
Some people use engineer for pilot, and many use third engineer for gunner. Which should be fine and workable. (the more crew combinations that can work, the more play styles they can let exist in the game..)
In the current game, third engineer is by far used more then gunner, not because normal ammo exists.. but because gunners do not have any advantage over engineer on many light guns.. and engineer with buff hammer is out right stronger.. Its all benefit to bring a engineer over a gunner..
Normal ammo isn't used on many of these guns regularly, where you would want the gunner.. (gat, mortar, light caro, flamer, etc)... because it has no value over the guns "best ammo"..
The only places normal ammo removal effects are... Artemis lesmok combo - which is an engi gun most of the time (mobula/junker/spire).. and second medium gunner on galleons, where sometimes the engi will opt for lesmok/normal to use the longer range guns at lest a little effectively.. From what I see, most people still prefer gunner on medium guns over third engineer so no need to nerf it really... because multiple ammo has value their, so there is some trade off on which to pick..
So I think normal ammo removal is just a lesmok nerf.. and a specific tactic nerf.. not a gunner buff really.
Gunners already have a combat advantage over engineer on medium guns and on hades/mine launcher.. If they change the buff hammer, then even more so.
Also its kinda silly to compare everyone having a pipe wrench vs everyone having normal ammo.. Pipe-wrench is useful on any ship with any load out .. Normal ammo as said above is only useful to engineers in certain situations.
Removing the buff hammers dmg bonus, balances gunner and engineer raw dmg.. But doesn't remove the lack of situational value on the light guns we need him to be valuable on.. So is likewise not necessarily the only answer..
--- Quote from: Crafeksterty on May 24, 2014, 09:23:57 pm ---There have been some pretty nice ammo suggestions that make you want to have a gunner. Instead of balance, they straight up buff the gunners slots.
Basically, the engineers slot for ammo should be a bad thing. The current selection of ammo does not do it. The gunner choosing this selection of ammo has more freedom but nothing that makes those extra slots worth while to have.
The pilots tools dont count as no one else can jump on the helm.
While every one can jump out and do a bit of repairing.
And everyone can shoot a gun.
The problem that, we obviously see is that we can do enough and in a desirable ammount with just one ammo type.
What if there are some vastly different ammo that make up for gunners? Some vast diffrences that make you want atleast 1 gunner.
1 Gunner on each ship is enough to be necessary for the fix.
Nerfing pilots and engineers, is actualy not the answer. Sure it helps the gunner but it doesnt make the gunner more of what he is.
And thats the reliefe of having more options for the situation, or more options to better control what is happening.
Ammo like charged, greased, heatsink, incindiary, burst are way too mundane, in a good or bad way. The only ammo that really kicks things up differently are the heavy clip, Lesmok, Lochnagar.
You will want more of THOSE types of ammo. The mundane ammo are close to being default. And that is the issue, how these default like ammunition can be easily used without wanting to switch out. Instead of removing Default ammo, you will want to enhance the use of default because the ammo choice is way too situational. Right now it isnt. Only few hit it spot on.
--- End quote ---
This is a far more logical idea, remove the ammo that currently are the "normal ammo++" for the light guns, and replace them with not one (as suggested) but several ammo that are useful on a gun - if possible - in several different situations that can all happen in any given match..
Basically buff the "situational" value of ammos, and debuff the I'm the best normal ammo++ for the gun.. Since based on ammo alone (if they don't add tools and such), gunner strength is his situational value.. vs engineer who is only useful if he has an ammo that can do everything needed in one ammo.
Milevan Faent:
--- Quote from: Caprontos on May 26, 2014, 11:35:01 am ---I honestly think people are greatly over valuing normal ammo..
All ships have 4 spots.. a pilot spot - two engineer spots - a gunner spot.. That's the basic "should be default" crew..
Some people use engineer for pilot, and many use third engineer for gunner. Which should be fine and workable. (the more crew combinations that can work, the more play styles they can let exist in the game..)
In the current game, third engineer is by far used more then gunner, not because normal ammo exists.. but because gunners do not have any advantage over engineer on many light guns.. and engineer with buff hammer is out right stronger.. Its all benefit to bring a engineer over a gunner..
Normal ammo isn't used on many of these guns regularly, where you would want the gunner.. (gat, mortar, light caro, flamer, etc)... because it has no value over the guns "best ammo"..
The only places normal ammo removal effects are... Artemis lesmok combo - which is an engi gun most of the time (mobula/junker/spire).. and second medium gunner on galleons, where sometimes the engi will opt for lesmok/normal to use the longer range guns at lest a little effectively.. From what I see, most people still prefer gunner on medium guns over third engineer so no need to nerf it really... because multiple ammo has value their, so there is some trade off on which to pick..
So I think normal ammo removal is just a lesmok nerf.. and a specific tactic nerf.. not a gunner buff really.
Gunners already have a combat advantage over engineer on medium guns and on hades/mine launcher.. If they change the buff hammer, then even more so.
Also its kinda silly to compare everyone having a pipe wrench vs everyone having normal ammo.. Pipe-wrench is useful on any ship with any load out .. Normal ammo as said above is only useful to engineers in certain situations.
Removing the buff hammers dmg bonus, balances gunner and engineer raw dmg.. But doesn't remove the lack of situational value on the light guns we need him to be valuable on.. So is likewise not necessarily the only answer..
--- Quote from: Crafeksterty on May 24, 2014, 09:23:57 pm ---There have been some pretty nice ammo suggestions that make you want to have a gunner. Instead of balance, they straight up buff the gunners slots.
Basically, the engineers slot for ammo should be a bad thing. The current selection of ammo does not do it. The gunner choosing this selection of ammo has more freedom but nothing that makes those extra slots worth while to have.
The pilots tools dont count as no one else can jump on the helm.
While every one can jump out and do a bit of repairing.
And everyone can shoot a gun.
The problem that, we obviously see is that we can do enough and in a desirable ammount with just one ammo type.
What if there are some vastly different ammo that make up for gunners? Some vast diffrences that make you want atleast 1 gunner.
1 Gunner on each ship is enough to be necessary for the fix.
Nerfing pilots and engineers, is actualy not the answer. Sure it helps the gunner but it doesnt make the gunner more of what he is.
And thats the reliefe of having more options for the situation, or more options to better control what is happening.
Ammo like charged, greased, heatsink, incindiary, burst are way too mundane, in a good or bad way. The only ammo that really kicks things up differently are the heavy clip, Lesmok, Lochnagar.
You will want more of THOSE types of ammo. The mundane ammo are close to being default. And that is the issue, how these default like ammunition can be easily used without wanting to switch out. Instead of removing Default ammo, you will want to enhance the use of default because the ammo choice is way too situational. Right now it isnt. Only few hit it spot on.
--- End quote ---
This is a far more logical idea, remove the ammo that currently are the "normal ammo++" for the light guns, and replace them with not one (as suggested) but several ammo that are useful on a gun - if possible - in several different situations that can all happen in any given match..
Basically buff the "situational" value of ammos, and debuff the I'm the best normal ammo++ for the gun.. Since based on ammo alone (if they don't add tools and such), gunner strength is his situational value.. vs engineer who is only useful if he has an ammo that can do everything needed in one ammo.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for stating exactly what is already being done on the dev app. You're all so behind on the times XD
Richard LeMoon:
What about making more powerful/specialized ammo take up two gunner slots? Give everyone two ammo slots, but normal is unchangeable. The other slot can be used for the more 'mundane' ammo choices. So, as we have now, Pilot and Engineer can take take a normal and special ammo. Choosing a more powerful, specialized ammo would take up two slots. If a Pilot or Engie took one of these, it would take up both slots, giving them only one choice in combat. Since a Gunner has four slots, they could take either Normal and three special ammos, OR two special ammo and one Specialized ammos, or two Specialized ammos. I would consider Lochnagar a Specialized ammo type, along with some of the new ones.
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