Fellow Ex-Gunners Of Icarus Lend Me Your Ears!

[N-Sunderland]

I swore I wouldn't post here again, but too bad.

Has anyone considered fixing the reload mechanic? As in, the gunner only needs to start the reload process with custom ammo, then the gun will finish loading the custom ammo by itself. It's simple and makes gunners able to do other stuff while the gun reloads, without influencing anyone else.

For example, one gunner can now easily manage a broadside of a galleon or front of a pyramidion, without being a slave to reload cycles and the need to babysit the guns to make sure the proper ammo gets loaded.

The problem lies here:

It's simple and makes gunners able to do other stuff while the gun reloads, without influencing anyone else.

That sounds great on paper, but in reality... What else does the gunner have to do? They can handle minor repairs, but that's about it. And on a lot of ships, the only thing the gunner has to repair is their own gun.

[Captain Smollett]

I actually think it could boost the gunner quite a bit if they could load special ammo for themselves and others without having to wait through the animation. 

This way a gunner could get an entire ships weaponry ready in moments; freeing up engineers for much more valuable tasks and pitch in a maintenance hand themeslves while running between guns.

[Morblitz]

That's something I've always been unsure about.
Is waiting out the animation - whereby if you leave the gun halfway through the reload it defaults to the previous ammo - part of the intended design or is it a bug?

[geggis]

I actually think it could boost the gunner quite a bit if they could load special ammo for themselves and others without having to wait through the animation. 

This way a gunner could get an entire ships weaponry ready in moments; freeing up engineers for much more valuable tasks and pitch in a maintenance hand themeslves while running between guns.

Agreed. It's more intuitive that way too. I thought it worked like that for a long time and that it was other gunners or engies dispensing the ammo but... obviously not. Sitting on a gun till that last pip of reload time disappears just to ensure a specific ammo type is loaded diminishes the role of a gunner because they've got to sit there waiting for a timer when they could be loading other guns, fixing stuff or y'know, gunning. By allowing unattended reloads you're giving the gunner a lot more to think about and juggle, much like the engineer.

Make standard/vanilla rounds an ammo type so engineers have to choose them or a specialised round (this echoes the gunner's choice of going mallet, wrench, spanner or riskier tools), and allow gunners to reload ammo unattended and I'm convinced you'll see much more diverse and realistically viable crew compositions as well as more interesting (and intuitive) play for gunners.

[Omniraptor]

I swore I wouldn't post here again, but too bad.

Has anyone considered fixing the reload mechanic? As in, the gunner only needs to start the reload process with custom ammo, then the gun will finish loading the custom ammo by itself. It's simple and makes gunners able to do other stuff while the gun reloads, without influencing anyone else.

For example, one gunner can now easily manage a broadside of a galleon or front of a pyramidion, without being a slave to reload cycles and the need to babysit the guns to make sure the proper ammo gets loaded.

The problem lies here:

It's simple and makes gunners able to do other stuff while the gun reloads, without influencing anyone else.

That sounds great on paper, but in reality... What else does the gunner have to do? They can handle minor repairs, but that's about it. And on a lot of ships, the only thing the gunner has to repair is their own gun.

Minor repairs? A gunner with a mallet can repair just as well as an engineer with a mallet.. As for doing other stuff, there's usually another gun nearby that needs shooting while its gungineer is away on repairs, and a component that may need repairing. The only truly isolated gun I can thing of is the top gun on a mobula, all the other guns have a component or second gun next to them.

In short, I'm not saying unattended reloads will make the gunners better than engineers, but they will bring them closer to being equal, which IMO is a good thing.

P.S. Geggis, I think that may be a good idea if all the players talked to each other and knew what they were doing, but there is a LOT of potential for abuse, confusion, etc. If I were muse, I'd leave it out of the game.

[geggis]

Hi Omni, not sure what suggestion you were referring to, making standard/vanilla rounds an ammo type or unattended reloading? I don't think either of those are any more open to abuse than current systems are really, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Omniraptor]

Oops. sorry for not being clear There's really no way that I can see to abuse unattended reloads, but the whole crew having different, inherently incompatible ammo types would be a nightmare of everyone reloading every time they get on a a gun, during the time they need to be shooting most.

[HamsterIV]

Unattended reloads would make engineers more powerful not gunners. Gunners don't have anything better to do than sit on their gun for the reload sequence.  Engineers could be fixing and buffing stuff. If unattended reloads became a thing both the Engineer and Gunner classes would gain the same amount of time to do non reload things. The engineer could use that time more effectively because they have more tools for that aspect of the game.

Unless your ship spawns in the middle of an active fight there is plenty of time to preload all the necessary ammo under the current system.

[Omniraptor]

Unattended reloads would make engineers more powerful not gunners. Gunners don't have anything better to do than sit on their gun for the reload sequence.  Engineers could be fixing and buffing stuff. If unattended reloads became a thing both the Engineer and Gunner classes would gain the same amount of time to do non reload things. The engineer could use that time more effectively because they have more tools for that aspect of the game.

Unless your ship spawns in the middle of an active fight there is plenty of time to preload all the necessary ammo under the current system.

Guns are usually grouped together, and in a fight a gunner needs to switch between guns pretty rapidly so the engineers have more time to repair essential components. Basically, unattended reloads give the gunner the ability to run between weapons and use his ammo types on more guns more effectively.

However, I can see where you're coming from about engineers being more useful off the guns. The problem is that engineers are bad at switching guns, while gunners are good (multiple ammo types that help alleviate range/accuracy/rate of fire problems). "Attended reloads" are still annoying and the game would be more fun for everyone if they became unattended.

[Koali]

We could just ask Muse to pull a VALVe and give the gunners better hats, or perhaps gunner hats with particle effects...

[KitKatKitty]

We could just ask Muse to pull a VALVe and give the gunners better hats, or perhaps gunner hats with particle effects...

I'm all for new hats! Always! But what we should more focus on are the testing ammos Muse had been working on that would give gunners privileges based on those special ammos, instead of the stamina. Have an ammo that allows the gun 5% extra arc or slightly faster reload ammo. That way it would actually be important for a gunner to have more than 1 ammo per gun.

[Xylo Wenchbane]

Hey guys I'll start off and admit I read up to page 10 and then thought that maybe what we're dealing with isn't simply a mechanics issue but possibly a social issue too..

The Engineer should be the default class players get. That way when they quickjoin a match they can learn the basics of how to play, using and switching tools, getting accustomed to the "slang" used for certain ship fits/weapons/etc. and also the priority of repairs on a ship. Then the next step is the gunner to learn the finer points of using weapons, seeing what they're effective against and at what ranges, how the ships speed and momentum affect bullets and what effect the ammo types provide. Then the last step is the Pilots which dictate ship positioning and in the case of a captain pilot the overall strategy of the boat and guidance for the crew.

So let's start out with the pilot class. I'll provide two examples of what I see;
First point is the tool under the piloting category that the pilot will almost never use because it isn't useful for them and they will almost exclusively be on the helm steering the platform. I'm talking about the spyglass, it naturally grew as a responsibility for the other crew to spot and mark enemies so the gunner can get to work promptly dismantling them.
The next point relates to how I've seen some of the Russian crews of yore manage their ships. The gunner would generally be the captain playing the game a la time crisis (Think arcade "on-rails" shooter) and this was surprisingly funny and effective.

The Pilot's responsibility whether they're captain or not is to provide the window for the gunner to deal damage with the hull mounted guns. Now the gunner should be glued to the main gun or moving between guns.

Next the Engineer. Which I have some experience with. Mainly keeping the ship in running order so the gunner doesn't suddenly lose arc because the balloon popped or one of the turning engines got blown and caused  the ship to spin out and ultimately lose the gunners arcs.

The engineer spots for the gunner and pilots to position and battle enemy vessels. The engineer gets all their usual role tools they also get the one ammo type this is where I will propose a change. While having two assigned to different components of the ship generally one will have enough down time during buff/chem cycles to don another weapon and possibly prepare for a bifecta, or even if the main engineer gets time a trifecta, this helps immensely with damage output.

Now what if we provide an item that would similarly be useless for the gunner to use since he's always gonna be planted on a gun which provides a little bit of convenience for the engineers and helmsman. Give them a flintlockesque pistol the gungineers could use to slow down opposing crews (not ships) movement speed and possibly interrupt certain mounted actions. This provides the convenience of covering blindspots (somewhat) and affecting enemy crews minimally enough to have an effect while not making the gunner useless and reinforcing their role as the heavy weapons that hurt.

The item could cause a noticeable but not completely debilitating affect on crews movement speed (Since engineers mostly move around to pilots who rarely move around) It could have a small interrupt effect on mounted crews (gunners and helmsman and any gungineers) Give it one shot then a slight reload this way it's not an auto spam and if you have two it's likely to interrupt some steering/chem/buff cycles. The worst that could happen is 2 engineers and the pilots use it simultaneously which  makes the ship vulnerable to being outmaneuvered and having cycles miss or out of tune slightly. The aiming shouldn't be super accurate but also not a massive spread so that you'll get a hit'n'miss from mediumish distances and maybe a more profound effect up close.

I'm against scaling passive boosts since that can easily spiral out of control and make it more frustrating for newer players to join and doing arbitrary cuts on classes right now doesn't seem to be good. The only other thing I would recommend is shuffling who can use what ammo but I'm not sure that's a super idea either.

It's just a small idea but let me know what you guys think.

[Sarabelle Marlowe]

I admit it does feel somewhat biased as far as the need for a gunner. But then that depends very much on what ship you happen to be on with what guns. There are guns that excel with one ammo type, but then there are others that do with many types...this is where having a gunner can make a decent ship into a more efficient one.

When maxing out gunner, I fully admit that I had help. As in, I play most with my fiance, Alistair, whom of which favors pilot. This was a huge advantage. We would work together, he comparing ship builds and I working with him on plays. And with us working together, it made it so that even ships where three engis are seen more often (like squid) he insisted that I stay gunner to utilize every gun he brought. We have done some crazy stunts working together, and I got my max levels with this class. As a result, I got good enough to the point that others request me staying gunner. The downside is that Alistair doesn't like playing without me gunning for him since we have such good synergy together.

While not a very satisfying reply, I suggest to a gunner, if you can, buddy up with a pilot. Play together long enough and you'd be surprised what you can accomplish.

Also, I like the idea of more hats. Hats are awesome.

But even better would be more ammo types. More ammo types means more need for them and more need means a gunner is a must. I'm all kinds of alright with this.

[Xylo Wenchbane]

I admit it does feel somewhat biased as far as the need for a gunner. But then that depends very much on what ship you happen to be on with what guns. There are guns that excel with one ammo type, but then there are others that do with many types...this is where having a gunner can make a decent ship into a more efficient one.

When maxing out gunner, I fully admit that I had help. As in, I play most with my fiance, Alistair, whom of which favors pilot. This was a huge advantage. We would work together, he comparing ship builds and I working with him on plays. And with us working together, it made it so that even ships where three engis are seen more often (like squid) he insisted that I stay gunner to utilize every gun he brought. We have done some crazy stunts working together, and I got my max levels with this class. As a result, I got good enough to the point that others request me staying gunner. The downside is that Alistair doesn't like playing without me gunning for him since we have such good synergy together.

While not a very satisfying reply, I suggest to a gunner, if you can, buddy up with a pilot. Play together long enough and you'd be surprised what you can accomplish.

Also, I like the idea of more hats. Hats are awesome.

But even better would be more ammo types. More ammo types means more need for them and more need means a gunner is a must. I'm all kinds of alright with this.

I see your point with how you work in a team with Hubby, but more ammo doesn't mean more demand for the class if all classes have access to it. It just means Heavy and Burst round for engineers will change to the "Ammo of the month" Instead if you shuffle ammo between classes or provide something else to fill that single slot it should bring gunners back into competitive perspective.

Gotta love drunk posting. Also just gonna salute you because the cider tells me too...

[Sarabelle Marlowe]

I see your point with how you work in a team with Hubby, but more ammo doesn't mean more demand for the class if all classes have access to it. It just means Heavy and Burst round for engineers will change to the "Ammo of the month" Instead if you shuffle ammo between classes or provide something else to fill that single slot it should bring gunners back into competitive perspective.

Gotta love drunk posting. Also just gonna salute you because the cider tells me too...

While yes, in some cases this would be the point with a gun that excels in one ammo type, there are plenty now that are. My argument is more with that there are guns now that do best when there are more on hand. (whatcha, heavy flak, ect). It's vital to have a gunner with these types. By having more ammo types to choose from, that opens up more guns that are more efficient by having multiple ammo types. At least, that's the theory.

Or more guns to choose from, but we saw what happend with that recently.