Fellow Ex-Gunners Of Icarus Lend Me Your Ears!

[Moriarty]

The discrimination and class warfare directed against us by the tyrannical muse patchtocracy has got to END! We must stand and make our voices heard!

We might not want to admit it, even to ourselves but it has happened... We have become third class citizens, despised and universally reviled.  Eking out a meagre existence outside the Icarus meta.

Our class skills outmoded. The utility of our munitions lessened.

I like many of you have had to forsake the honourable profession, swallow my pride and don the ungainly role of the engineer.

The recent attacks on our livelihood patches have ruined our toys forced our hand.   

Brothers I fear for our survival...

[Skrimskraw]

I agree, the gunner should be meta again.

[Chango]

I personally still like a gunner on a lot of my ships. There is still a need for multiple munitions, mostly due to range. Maybe gunners should get some sort of inert bonus, like 10% extra damage, to give them the boost much needed.

[Phoebe]

While the gunner is often discarded because people find a "Gungineer" more useful;-  one thing the Gunner has that the Engineer does not besides multiple amunition slots is their associated rank.

If I see a rank 5 engineer;- but don't know the person - I can't assume he's used all of the guns;- can fire a lumberjack;- knows what ammo to use for a gatling or is any good at leading a target - but if I see a rank 5 gunner I'm comfortable knowing this person has spent enough time at a primary gun to do some damage.

That doesn't take away the fact I agree the gunner could use some more distinction and provide just a tad extra in their field so they are more appreciated in their role; however.    I just add little lines here and there to make sure people realize things they didn't think about.

[Pickle]

I like a Gunner on every ship I Captain (except the Squid, where I'm happy with or without).. but I only ever want one.  A bit like how I only want one Pilot.

Gunners are useful, and a Captain that doesn't realise this probably doesn't fully understand the role of Gunner.  Or has had a succession of bad Gunners that can't compensate the sights for range/drift, don't use ammunition choices effectively, and want an Engineer to baby sit and repair their guns for them.


My previous suggestion still stands:
- give Gunners full zoomable/scoped, ranged sights on every gun
- give non-Gunners get very basic non-zoomable, non-ranged, notch and ring sights

If you want to add an extreme penalty for non-Gunners, add 5% to the jitter value for non-Gunners - but in that case you need to give Gunners a 5% repair penalty to match.  Perhaps the non-Gunner jitter penalty could apply to non-Light weapons only, and the Gunner repair penalty to non-guns only.

[Moriarty]

I don't know if the issue can be corrected by changing relatively small numbers, to stay relevant in the current and foreseeable environment class might need retooling.

This is of course just my take on the situation; but ever since the patch made damage dependent on repair, gunners have actually become an active liability, detracting from overall performance of a given team.

I would back this statement up by saying look at the ducks (paddling) no gunners and I bet we'll see the gents change to Gungineers in the next cogs match as well. 

I suppose a goldfish could support a gunner but it would be just that 'supported', requiring the services of an understanding Engi who has time on their hands.

[BdrLineAzn]

I also feel that the Gunner class is out of love a little. But, as many others has stated, I like a Gunner on my ship. Reason being is that with the multiple ammo loadouts, if I have a really good gun, he or she will know how to maximise the dps on a gun or multiple of guns. Even if I may have a recently joined Gunner comes upon my ship and doesn't bring the optimal loadout, if the ammo is useful, they cam still do quite more damage then a single ammo Engineer.

Which I go on to my second point. As an Engineer myself, there may be hardly no time where I can get on a gun and start shooting. The majority of the time has me running around fixing different components. If I have time or an opportunity present itself, with the single ammo type, mostly I'm limited to one gun where I can increase the dps of it. Even as a Gungineer and spend more time around the weapons, with one ammo type, you can't out shoot the Gunner in dps.

All in all, we must shed new light on this Class as there are many new people who doesn't understand the importance of the Gunner. I may not have any ideas on how to improve the Gunner, but I agree that they should make a come back.

[Pickle]

I think someone's confusing the Cogs with the wider metagame..

The Cogs is a relatively unimportant part of the game with only a touching relevance to the game played by most of the players.  If one or two teams in the Cogs choose to experiment with all-Engineer crews, this is merely the hint of a slight problem for part of the player population.  It's not a doom-and-gloom-Gunners-have-ceased-to-have-a-purpose warning.

I'll hazard a guess that there were significantly more Gunners than Junkers on the team sheets.

[Moriarty]

Oh? And how would you characterise it when Engies are generally better behind a gun (in my view anyway) than the gunning class or at the *very* least objectively as good.

It may not be as obvious as the Junker/Spire issue but it's disingenuous to make the comparison between the two problems in any case. I mean on what basis would you compare the lack of distinction between 2 of 3 playable classes to the rather large distinction between the ship designs. Apples and oranges.   

[Squash]

So here's why Gunners suck;

1. Engineers pick three below, gunners pick one
a) Buff Hammers provide a 30% bonus to damage.
b) Spanners rebuild the fastest.
c) Rubber Malletts can keep your gun at 100% health, critically important now that gun health relates to effective output.
d) Chem Spray almost completely removes the need for heatsink.

2. Gunners get three ammo types.
a) Most guns only ever need one ammo type regardless of situation.
b) Even if responsible for two guns, most guns share a common ammo type synergy.

3. Engineers are flexible, when they aren't shooting they can repair engines, buff the hull, ect.

4. Gunners are fundamentally dependent on engineers, and cannot operate a gun without adult supervision.  See Point 2.



Here are scenarios you can get away with a Gunner.

-Manticore or Carronade Goldfish. The Manticore appreciates heavy clip until point blank, when burst is valuable. The Carronade would benefit from heavy/lesmok at range and then charged, burst, or even lochnager closer.

Counterpoint: This same task can be achieved with two engineers each bringing a different ammo type, and a small amount of coordination. The benefit of this is the person on the gun doesn't have to be babysitted.


-Lower Deck Galleon with different guns on the left side than the right. Two different medium guns often requires preloading with two different ammo types.

Counterpoint: But usually there's a common ammo both guns like. The other person downstairs with you surely wouldn't appreciate having to keep rebuilding/repairing/extinguishing (pick two) the gunner's gun.



So why do people still play Gunner?

-Because if you play Gunner in a casual game, people will give you a gun. I do it too, because off a gun a Gunner is completely useless. But that doesn't mean they're more useful on a gun than an engineer.

-That's it. The above reason. That's it. That's the only good reason to play a Gunner now.



How should Gunner be fixed?

This isn't an RPG (outside of Burning Skies), we don't need static value bonuses some classes get over others. Here's my suggestions.

-Change the Gunner from 3 Ammo types and 1 Repair tool to 2 Ammo types and 2 Repair tools.

-Give the Gunner access to unique ammo types. Can you imagine how different the game would be if only Gunners got Lesmok or Heavy Clip?

[Helmic]

I like the idea of each class being distinguished only by their slots.  The big issue that everyone seems to be not noticing despite bringing it up repeatedly is that guns don't need multiple ammo types.

Read that again.

GUNS DON'T NEED MULTIPLE AMMO TYPES.  Anything broken needs multiple repair tools to fix it, but the same does not apply to guns and ammo.

The best way to fix this is to make guns work better with different types of ammo.  Why do so many light guns only work effectively with one or possibly two ammos?  Why do you need to be on a gun when the ammo finishes loading for it to count?  The metagame for someone playing gunner is fairly simple, look at the guns you'll be manning and bring the one or two ammos that you'll need for them.  It really just comes down to experienced captains just dictating the ammo everyone carries.

[Morblitz]

I like many of you have had to forsake the honourable profession, swallow my pride and don the ungainly role of the engineer.

I dunno, man. The engineer costumes are pretty boss.

[Lord Dick Tim]

I agree with phoebe's and squash's post.  I see a gunner that's a higher level, I trust them more to hit a target then an equally skilled engineer.  I tend to value a good gunner over a good engineer anyways, rather having the best gunner and a mediocre engineer.
But the gungineer build is just something special, that 30% buff hammer loaded with charged rounds on a light flak?  Hmm...  Just to much awesome going on to ignore.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Ill chime in. First 30% buffed sounds wrong. Im not able to check right now but for as long as I can remember it was always 20-25%. Ill work off of Squash's post to get some points across.

So here's why Gunners suck;

1. Engineers pick three below, gunners pick one
a) Buff Hammers provide a 30% bonus to damage.
b) Spanners rebuild the fastest.
c) Rubber Malletts can keep your gun at 100% health, critically important now that gun health relates to effective output.
d) Chem Spray almost completely removes the need for heatsink.

As stated i think that 30% is wrong. If not, thats new...Either way your engie has to be off the gun to perform these buffs. So thats lost potential DPS. Then the buff lasts ~20 seconds. Depending on the gun, thats usually 1-2 clips before you spend however long buffing the thing again.

If his gun dies, He calls for repair and the engies come do it. Its also the job of the pilot to realize the gun is down and either evade for a renewed pass with a rebuilt gun or stick it out.

A good gunner knows when his gun needs repair. He doesnt need to be "babysat." Fire now is a joke for disabling guns unless you spray a flamethrower on their face for quite awhile. 9 times out of 10 that gunner can repair through a gun fire until a good point comes for the engies to put it out. I never request heatsink unless its a filler ammo for the particular layout.

2. Gunners get three ammo types.
a) Most guns only ever need one ammo type regardless of situation.
b) Even if responsible for two guns, most guns share a common ammo type synergy.

Every heavy gun benefits from 2-3 ammo types in varying situations. Light weapons not so much, but some do, and on say a Junker, its a layout choice of the pilot to make one ammo the go-to or to make his layout more versatile.


The role of a gunner is to keep a gun firing on the enemy. With retreating from a fight being very difficult in goio, you need a deterrent. You need DPS. You need a miraculous loch shot that kills your pursuer. This is your gunner's role. If you think that a "gungineer" can out perform a good gunner, you havent had a good gunner.

[Skrimskraw]

or make ammo that does something else than pure damaging.

you could use the gunner to have both damage ammo and some sort of disable ammo. like ammo that explodes with glue and stops engines from running at 100%, maybe some ammo that negates the buffs.