Why the current level system is not good

[Velvet]

CoD is not by any means the only game to utilise an XP based levelling system. Same way 3D graphics are used in CoD - it doesn't mean 3D graphics should only be used in shallow CoD clones.

do you have to scare some crows away from your crops? why did you build this straw man?

no where did imply that cod is the only game with an xp based leveling system.

look, whether you agree with the renown approach or not, the fact remains that an xp based system is inappropriate for this game as there is no possibility for progression everything that matters in the game is already available to everyone. you will just have arbitrary numbers increasing until they reset to zero and start increasing again. it will be a measure of playtime more than anything else.  If an xp system is inappropriate then you have to use something else or not have a leveling system at all.

yes, XP would be a measure of playtime and basically have no value except as a bragging right and for aesthetic unlocks. That doesn't matter! What do you think the current system is? A genuine skill indicator? I would much rather that level indicated someone's experience level - often a good rough indicator of their skill - than the number of arbitrary tasks they have completed to increase their level.
Further I really don't feel level matters as a measurement. The important role is as a motivator. People want to level up... it doesn't matter if there is a good reason or they get something tangible for it, they just do. It would be better to utilise that force to motivate people to play the game as a team and co-operate to win than to motivate them to selfishly manipulate the situation to complete this massive list of silly tasks.

With the achievement system already built into the game and people already investing their time into it, there is no way to get rid of it without pissing people off. its here to stay in skirmish, thats just how it is. i personally dont care about the achievements either, but i dont think its as big of a problem as you guys are presenting it as, i very rarely run into anyone that is not willing to work together in favor of doing their achievement.

would be trivially easy to convert current achievements, or some other tracked statistic such as number of wins, into XP.

I don't view this as a problem, so much as a missed opportunity. A better level system would encourage new players to play the game in a different way and potentially increase their enjoyment, ultimately making the game more fun for everyone as well as possibly improving player retention and sales. Therefore the fact that the situation seems to be OK right now really isn't too relevant.

[macmacnick]

I personally find the Achievement-based system nicer as it allows for any achievement to count equally to any level, and it is a more unique aspect to GoIO and Velvet, it would not be terribly easy to convert achievements, as you could literally go the same way with the achievements if you wanted to convert them into said hypothetical experience points. however, the achievement system, to an extent allows one to level up even if they were on a loosing streak. Basing levels off of wins would just motivate the culture to shift more so in the Call of Duty direction, motivating people to go for the quick kill, removing the tactics from it all, and above all, motivation to steal the kills of others, which is no bueno.

[Omniraptor]

I personally find the Achievement-based system nicer as it allows for any achievement to count equally to any level, and it is a more unique aspect to GoIO and Velvet, it would not be terribly easy to convert achievements, as you could literally go the same way with the achievements if you wanted to convert them into said hypothetical experience points. however, the achievement system, to an extent allows one to level up even if they were on a loosing streak. Basing levels off of wins would just motivate the culture to shift more so in the Call of Duty direction, motivating people to go for the quick kill, removing the tactics from it all, and above all, motivation to steal the kills of others, which is no bueno.

basing levels off WINS, not KILLS. That is a very important distinction you seem to have missed. Selfish killstealing and mindless charging will not give you levels if the leveling system is based off wins. Teamwork, planning, tactics, and general skillful play, however, will.

It all depends on whether we want levels to be indicators of skill and prestige, or indicators of how willing you are to grind/farm some inane task.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

The level system, after being in it for over a year now, is really just a recognition of dedication. The number of hours you've put into the game and the effort. It isn't so much about skill. However, those hours do amount to something. New players will not win 1v1s against veterans. There is just no way. The playing field is leveled and the game is the same for both, but the experience gap is too large to cross yet.

Games like CoD reward reaction time and memorization. Put the same players in other games like GOIO and they flop simply because the ship becomes the player and the crew becomes the hands, feet, head/etc. If any factor is not in sync, the ship will be ineffective. They can't function under those conditions. GOIO rewards more the people who can orchestrate all that well or adapt well. I'd like to think of the Coddies as more the, fresh meat for the grinder, frontline grunts, and the GOIO players as more the commanders or the special forces unit who see the bigger picture or have to be a cohesive unit.

Hence why GOIO doesn't skyrocket and become ultra popular but is never without dedicated players. Put a Coddie vs a GOIO in an airship fight...that Coddie is grinder bait. Put a GOIO in a twitch FPS vs a Coddie...I'd still bet money on the GOIO player because they'll be the ones thinking ahead and not just relying on reaction times. Coddies can't cross over unless they stop relying on speed and rely more on their head. Unfortunately, we've got a generation now stuck in speed mode.

[Dementio]

What does leveling in this game even do for you? It gives you cosmetic items, some dyes, and a few badges. That is what I meant when I said you don't need to level up. You don't actually gain anything from it.
In other games you would have to level up in order to gain more weapons/utility items or you play as many games as you can to gain xp which is also the very currency in said game that you use to buy some characters with it.

In GoIO you already have everything unlocked from the very beginning and this makes leveling up kinda pointless, unless you want a nice badge and a nice number. By winning tournaments or winning against the Devs you gain the rest of the cosmetic items.

This would work with an xp-based level system too, yes, but it seems rather flat, to me, in comparision.

If you want an indicator of skills you look at how many matches this person has played, that's as much as you can do in GoIO. Xp would, in one way, just stand as a synonym for the number of matches you have played.
May your actual level number be as high as it is, at a certain level it makes no difference to most players, no matter what leveling system would be used. What's the difference between level 9 and 15? Level 15 has (maybe) played more and thus maybe knows one or two tricks more out of experience. How significant that knowledge really is depends on stuff.

As a side note, in a xp-based level system you would gain xp based on how good you performed even if you lose, the score board at the end of the match is supposed to tell you that. The score board is just as pointless as the entire level system.


Also, might I ask why, in the name of something important, somebody would choose to level up instead of actually playing the game and have fun if leveling up in this game is pointless from the very beginning? And what do you think people do when they reach lvl 15 on every class? Stop playing the game just because?

Leveling is not the main focus of this game and it certainly is not the reason why certain people keep coming back to play it.

[Velvet]

If you want an indicator of skills you look at how many matches this person has played, that's as much as you can do in GoIO. Xp would, in one way, just stand as a synonym for the number of matches you have played.

no, it would stand as a combined indicator of the number of matches you have played and the number of matches you have won - and thanks to matchmaking, this would be only victories against roughly equally matched opponents.

I seriously can't see how you continue to believe that nobody cares about levels... especially since you're a level 14 pilot - you've clearly gone to significant effort and gone out of your way to farm achievements that have the only effect of increasing your level. Yet you're suggesting that levels are meaningless to people? The fact that the rewards for levelling up are purely aesthetic items and a nontangible increase in self-perceived importance does not mean there is no reward at all or that they don't motivate anyone to do anything. A fact that you, like so many others, stand as living proof of.

I don't understand your purpose in continuing to attack the importance of the levelling system.. this is not a debate on how important it is, it's a discussion of the current problems and whether it should be redesigned to make the game more enjoyable. While it's true that if the levelling system really was irrelevant to many players it wouldn't be such a high priority for Muse to fix it, that A) doesn't change the fact that it should be eventually fixed and B) is a moot point because your assertions are wrong.

[SeraphZ]

Rebuilding hull armor is one of those things that will happen to you very soon no matter if you agree to it. Forcing a situation like this seems pointless to me. Also, you should always remember that an engineer should have higher priorities with repairs than doing achievements (maybe you don't deserve this level after all if you don't see it ).

Certainly - it was an oversimplified example just to show importance of motivation. I'm much lower level than everyone else in this thread but I can see these small issues at my level becoming major later in the game - which is consistent with the response to this thread.

no, it would stand as a combined indicator of the number of matches you have played and the number of matches you have won - and thanks to matchmaking, this would be only victories against roughly equally matched opponents.

I completely agree, matches won over matches total is indicator of skill, though volume of XP might be due to just straight persistence. I think this is overall good - to level you either work hard or you work well.

I'm very pleased this topic has taken off and I hope Muse takes some time to consider the subject!

[GeoRmr]

Rebuilding hull armor is one of those things that will happen to you very soon no matter if you agree to it. Forcing a situation like this seems pointless to me. Also, you should always remember that an engineer should have higher priorities with repairs than doing achievements (maybe you don't deserve this level after all if you don't see it ).

Certainly - it was an oversimplified example just to show importance of motivation. I'm much lower level than everyone else in this thread but I can see these small issues at my level becoming major later in the game - which is consistent with the response to this thread.

no, it would stand as a combined indicator of the number of matches you have played and the number of matches you have won - and thanks to matchmaking, this would be only victories against roughly equally matched opponents.

I completely agree, matches won over matches total is indicator of skill, though volume of XP might be due to just straight persistence. I think this is overall good - to level you either work hard or you work well.

I'm very pleased this topic has taken off and I hope Muse takes some time to consider the subject!

I disagree, currently in this game matches won is no indication of skill, merely an inclination to play with other good players against worse players. This game is far too team-based for win/loss ratio to mean anything.

[Velvet]

I disagree, currently in this game matches won is no indication of skill, merely an inclination to play with other good players against worse players. This game is far too team-based for win/loss ratio to mean anything.

I agree that for an XP system to work it would either have to have a skill rating to limit XP gain in unbalanced matches - or to be introduced in tandem with the already planned matchmaking feature which should largely eliminate the factor of players intentionally organising unbalanced matches.

[Dementio]

no, it would stand as a combined indicator of the number of matches you have played and the number of matches you have won - and thanks to matchmaking, this would be only victories against roughly equally matched opponents.

You are suggestion something that has nothing to do with an xp-based level system.
With my argument I had simple logic in mind: The more matches he played, the more experienced he gathered. The more experience he has, the better he is in the game.
It's only an assumption and even some high level players are considered to be bad at everything they do, but it's the best we currently have in this game. Or do you want to be able to see every single stat MUSE database has about this player, similar to your own progess tab?
No matter what kind of indicator this game has, in the end you will have to play with the person in question to know how good/bad said person really is.

Yes, I am a level 14 pilot, you got sharp eyes there, but that shows that I just know how pointless it is to level up. Just think logical, what's waiting for you there, at level 15? A BADGE AND A NICE NUMBER! I honestly don't care about either of those.

If you want to know why I am level 14 read on, if not then skip to second to last paragraph. If you wanna argument against me at why I lvl up, you might wanna take a look.

I did the achievements, because I had the opportunity, time and it sounded fun. Kills ships with flamethrowers? Double flamethrower pyramidion! Kill harpooned ships? Harpoon on the side of the junker! Destroy balloons as a spire? 4 carronades!
Yes there were some not fun achievements (use hydrogen for X seconds, kill X ships at a distance of over 1300m), but from time to time I though "Why not?". What's gonna stop me from going long range, what's gonna stop me from making my engineer hate me because I use this tool too often? Nothing! So why not?
However, most achievements I got at random, Kill X ships, win X matches, capture X points, destroy this ship X times, win X matches against level 7+ with 100% hull armor and some more.
They were not hard, most were not boring, but some gave me more "weird" ideas (double mine junker) or encoureged me to think (what's best for long range? how to use this gun most effiecently and on how many ships can I do it?).
Currently I am stuck at some mobula kills. I will get those in time.

I am a level 14 pilot without actually grinding for it. I don't feel satisfied, proud, sad or anything. I just like playing this game and that leveled me up. An xp-based level system would have done the same, but with less "effort" and "creativity".

I am not trying to argument the current level system's importance, but show you just how unimportant the xp-based level system is in comparision. It wouldn't make anything better and most likely not worse either. The current level system is good and changing it to a basic xp-based one would be, in my opinion, completely stupid and time wasting.

I have a question: How is an xp-based level system better again? It does not show skill since you lvl up even if you lose every match doing nothing at some point in time, that's for sure. And it would be just as rewarding as the current level system. So, how is it better?

[SeraphZ]

I disagree, currently in this game matches won is no indication of skill, merely an inclination to play with other good players against worse players. This game is far too team-based for win/loss ratio to mean anything.

That's true, which is why XP would be based not on the ratio but number of matches.

[GeoRmr]

I disagree, currently in this game matches won is no indication of skill, merely an inclination to play with other good players against worse players. This game is far too team-based for win/loss ratio to mean anything.

That's true, which is why XP would be based not on the ratio but number of matches.

you have taken my comment out of context, I was replying to a post that suggested xp be taken from the ratio.

[SeraphZ]

I disagree, currently in this game matches won is no indication of skill, merely an inclination to play with other good players against worse players. This game is far too team-based for win/loss ratio to mean anything.

That's true, which is why XP would be based not on the ratio but number of matches.

you have taken my comment out of context, I was replying to a post that suggested xp be taken from the ratio.

That was my post, but no one was suggesting that. Just that with wins giving more XP a higher Win/Loss ratio will mean you level faster. It would still be mostly a stat used for pissing contests.

[VictorSturm]

i find that the main problem is, that instead of encouraging new tactics and experimentation, the result is annoying grinding. in the beginning i played a lot as pilot with the Pyramidion, without gaining any points for using this ship. thats because, while the current challenge is "Goldfish mastery" i don't earn anything from using other ships! so you have to use the goldfish and win 10 matches. fair enough, but after 5 wins, it's beginning to get tedious. but you can't change ships if you want to level up. the system that tries to make us experiment is making us grind.
the fact that other achievements ruin co-op is even worse. a pilot that runs around fixing guns for the "Helping hand"? that ruins your day.
kill stealing is becoming a thing.
rushing in to set things on fire puts the crew, and the team in risk.


suggestion: implement a xp system for LvL, cosmetics and medals, but keep the achievements as something that yields a lot of xp.
or seperate them completely.

but a Xp system that gives points for every ship the team takes down, end of the round bonuses for engie, and stuff. focus om rewarding teamplay and organic strategy, not grinding with the carronade.


 

[Dementio]

Killing an enemy could still be kill stealing...

The order of the achievement are quite annyoing and if that is so troublesome to most, why not suggest that you can do such achievements at the same time? Flying goldfish first or spire first won't matter. However, the many achievements that are very similar to each other (Repair X times, rebuild X times, win deathmatch X times) should stay in the order they are right now, but not interfere with the order that other achievements (like flying ship A or B). _{Those this sound confusing?}

This would resolve the issue of doing this before that and yet you still have to play the game a lot in order to achieve other achievements. A pilot could then fix any gun at anytime without actually having to worry about the achievement.