Author Topic: Why the current level system is not good  (Read 36642 times)

Offline SeraphZ

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Why the current level system is not good
« on: May 16, 2014, 08:10:01 pm »
Hypothetical situation:
I'm an Engi on Dunes in the middle of a battle, and our hull armor is just about to go down. I hit Q and see 'Rebuild 30 Hull Armor on Dunes 29/30'. Rebuild Hull Armor... not repair... repairing this will do me no good. But if I let it get destroyed first... then I could level up.

While ideally a player would say "I'm sure this will be destroyed soon enough" and repair instead of rebuild but it's an issue of motivation. As a game designer you never want to motivate your players to not do the right thing.

I do appreciate that the game doesn't have a boring simple XP system. I really like the idea of leveling being for what you do in game instead of just playing. But it only supports achievement hunting, instead of playing the game because it's fun, which is a shame. Take care, I really do like the game a lot.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 08:57:11 pm »
You haven't seen nothing yet till you get past level 10. Heck level 15 achievements literally cannot be done without tons of hours spent for just the right moment to happen, or arranged farming. All the 15 pilots you see in game pretty much had to do that to hit 15. Heck I had to arrange farming on Firnfeld and I think one other.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2014, 09:05:30 pm »
They become crazy. And for new players arent a good thing at all. They give you rewards though.

Offline Velvet

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 09:18:45 pm »
xp level system would be brilliant imo and not at all boring. Instead of getting rewarded for some inane tasks that are detrimental to you and your team's enjoyment of the game you are instead getting rewarded for playing to win - which has the indirect effect of encouraging teamwork, because that is by far the surest way of achieving victory. Levelling systems, like it or not, are important to many players and play a role in motivating them to continue to play a game and are influential in how they play that game as many people try to level as fast as possible.

Currently the levelling system encourages players to play selfishly, to complete their own set of tasks which often means playing in a way that is detrimental to their team's enjoyment of the game. It forces you to shape the environment of a match to suit the needs of your own personal set of achievements - coming into conflict with other players who want to change the environment to suit their own achievement requirements or who want to have fun.

Whereas an XP system would reward players for two simple things - playing the game, and winning matches. It's a well known fact that, at least as far as pub matches go, the deciding factor is pretty much always teamwork; both on ship and ship to ship. Which means to win matches to maximise XP gain, players need to work together as a team. So they are playing the game as I can only imagine it was envisaged, co-operating to achieve mutual success rather than manipulating the situation to maximise personal gain.

I think most issues with regards to the applicability of an XP system to GOIO have pretty simple solutions. Yes, it'd be pretty rough as there's no good way to track a player's individual contribution. But that's fine - you reward players as a team, because they achieved as a team. Sometimes there will be dead weight who get XP for other players' work.. and sometimes there will be great players who are dragged down by a bad team. But on the whole it should even out.
Measuring the difficulty, and XP value of a match, would also be kind of tricky. But once matchmaking is implemented, it could be assumed that every match is basically equally matched and that therefore the XP value of each match is the same. Although this wouldn't be universally true, if the matchmaking system is any good it will even out; since a good matchmaking system will on average produce balanced matches. Averages are pretty important here; XP rewards would always be on occasion more or less than deserved - but afaik that's pretty normal in any game and it always holds that in a good system, things even out in the bigger picture.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:25:17 pm by Velvet »

Offline SeraphZ

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 02:28:25 am »
Velvet I think you're absolutely right - a normal XP system is the only thing that motivates players appropriately.

Offline Deltajugg

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 03:44:53 am »
As much as I agree that achievement system and leveling up could be fixed A LITTLE BIT (like removing or remaking some achievements, but only that), even I, despite cheeving like crazy, do not click Q every time to decide whether or not I should let the hull armor die to rebuild it.
Rebuilding hull armor is one of those things that will happen to you very soon no matter if you agree to it. Forcing a situation like this seems pointless to me. Also, you should always remember that an engineer should have higher priorities with repairs than doing achievements (maybe you don't deserve this level after all if you don't see it :P).

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 07:18:53 am »
xp level system would be brilliant imo and not at all boring. Instead of getting rewarded for some inane tasks that are detrimental to you and your team's enjoyment of the game you are instead getting rewarded for playing to win - which has the indirect effect of encouraging teamwork, because that is by far the surest way of achieving victory. Levelling systems, like it or not, are important to many players and play a role in motivating them to continue to play a game and are influential in how they play that game as many people try to level as fast as possible.

Currently the levelling system encourages players to play selfishly, to complete their own set of tasks which often means playing in a way that is detrimental to their team's enjoyment of the game. It forces you to shape the environment of a match to suit the needs of your own personal set of achievements - coming into conflict with other players who want to change the environment to suit their own achievement requirements or who want to have fun.

Whereas an XP system would reward players for two simple things - playing the game, and winning matches. It's a well known fact that, at least as far as pub matches go, the deciding factor is pretty much always teamwork; both on ship and ship to ship. Which means to win matches to maximise XP gain, players need to work together as a team. So they are playing the game as I can only imagine it was envisaged, co-operating to achieve mutual success rather than manipulating the situation to maximise personal gain.

I think most issues with regards to the applicability of an XP system to GOIO have pretty simple solutions. Yes, it'd be pretty rough as there's no good way to track a player's individual contribution. But that's fine - you reward players as a team, because they achieved as a team. Sometimes there will be dead weight who get XP for other players' work.. and sometimes there will be great players who are dragged down by a bad team. But on the whole it should even out.
Measuring the difficulty, and XP value of a match, would also be kind of tricky. But once matchmaking is implemented, it could be assumed that every match is basically equally matched and that therefore the XP value of each match is the same. Although this wouldn't be universally true, if the matchmaking system is any good it will even out; since a good matchmaking system will on average produce balanced matches. Averages are pretty important here; XP rewards would always be on occasion more or less than deserved - but afaik that's pretty normal in any game and it always holds that in a good system, things even out in the bigger picture.

If this were the system you may as well display the number of matches a player has played rather than a level. Without the current achievement system I think we will see a decrease in the number of mobulas, squids, spires; and as the xp system is purely derived from wins, more frequent lobby stacking.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 07:25:20 am by GeoRmr »

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2014, 07:26:36 am »
As much as I agree that achievement system and leveling up could be fixed A LITTLE BIT (like removing or remaking some achievements, but only that), even I, despite cheeving like crazy, do not click Q every time to decide whether or not I should let the hull armor die to rebuild it.
Rebuilding hull armor is one of those things that will happen to you very soon no matter if you agree to it. Forcing a situation like this seems pointless to me. Also, you should always remember that an engineer should have higher priorities with repairs than doing achievements (maybe you don't deserve this level after all if you don't see it :P).

If you force it, no one will want to play with you, then you can't level up!

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2014, 07:56:29 am »
At last the nightmare is over...finally got those stupid 1300m kills done. Semi farmed. Just experienced crew against a ton of noobs who tried to snipe back instead of charge my face.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2014, 10:02:16 am »
No matter how weird or impossible or how incredibly stupid the achievements seem, they are all still great.
Yes, >1000m kills take quite long and MUSE could decrease the number for those achievements, but it enables you to learn how to hit from a really long range or you learn how to play as a long range ship. Even if it might be a bit simple to play long range, you can always mess up.

As well as winning King of the Flayed Hills as a Junker is not actually the worst achievement. By playing a slow ship on such a large map in a gamemode where you have to run around the entire map, you will be forced to make use of communication. Without it, you will not get your achievement. (Playing against noobs doesn't count.)

Pilot achievements let you experiences all ships in different playstyles. Gunner achievements let you play around with every gun and ammunition on every gun. Engineer achievements all seem to be the same though, but on the opposite, engineers always DO the same, so basically engineers get rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do and are always doing.

And then they are achievements that make no sense. Extinguish fires with chem spray! Kill harpooned ships! Destroy parts with heatsink! ???

What bothers me most about this level system are not the achievements that make you question MUSE's sanity, but those repetitive ones. Kill X ships, capture X points, kill X ships again, WHY NOT CAPTURE SOME MORE POINTS AND KILL SOME SHIPS AFTER THAT.
You just have to deal with those, if you want to level up.

The greatest thing about this level system, however, is that you don't NEED to lvl up. You can be the best player in a specific category and only be lvl 5. Like be the best squid pilot all around, the best lumberjack gunner at >1500m and engineers, I dunno about engineers.

The level system is great, is what I say, even though some achievements could need a bit of reworking. Like the long range kills, you have to do too many for it to be actually fun. Or use hydrogen for 3 hours (not the correct number) even though using it for 1 second destroys your balloon halfway, since it stays activated for 3 seconds after you deactivated it...

Offline Velvet

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2014, 11:48:02 am »
If this were the system you may as well display the number of matches a player has played rather than a level. Without the current achievement system I think we will see a decrease in the number of mobulas, squids, spires; and as the xp system is purely derived from wins, more frequent lobby stacking.
Honestly I don't think achievements deserve much credit for ship variety - at least in its positive form. Pretty much every enjoyable mobula, squid or spire I see is flown by someone who likes that ship and is good at it. The ships where it's flown because the pilot is doing it for an achievement and/or doesn't know what they're getting into detract from my game experience, I don't know about yours.
GOIO has a joy in its variety but that is something in itself. It doesn't need people to be incentivised to discover it, it IS the incentive. It's pointless, it even deprecates from that variety, to push players towards specific loadouts. It's awesome that there's a huge choice, you can fly one of many different ships and then from there discover an endless depth of potential strategy and hilarity through guns, tactics, crew loadouts, your ally's ship and composition, playing on different maps... pushing players to sample the variety in little pieces, to give up their freedom to choose in order to maximise their progression is, in my opinion, not a positive effect.

I did actually address your concern about lobby stacking. Matchmaking is coming. Lobby stacking won't be a thing - or if it is, players will have no choice or ability to control it so it's irrelevant whether or not the XP encourages stacked lobbies. Because it's impossible to intentionally create a stacked lobby. Even if we ignore matchmaking, I'm sure it's not beyond Muse to build a system to gauge the "difficulty" of a lobby/team to decide XP rewards. simply averaging the levels of players on each team and multiplying winner's XP by the ratio of Loser:Winner, while rough, would be effective enough to make stacking generally unrewarding.

As for Dementio's argument... achievements don't enable you to do anything. They encourage you to do things. Don't suggest that players wouldn't try unusual builds or tactics without achievements because that's simply not true. I think imagination and seeing other peoples' strategies are far more important in creating new and interesting situations.
However the unfortunate case with achievements is that the rigid, linear structure of the achievements paths means that players are encouraged to play in specific ways, before they are ready to try such a strategy, or when such a strategy is plain BS (eg. gunner with a Mallet or gunner light flak achieves).

You don't NEED to level up, no. However you don't NEED to play the game, or NEED to do any of the many things that you choose to do in your life. It's all a matter of encouragement. Hunger encourages rather than forces eating, however it's widely acknowledged that people aren't just going to ignore hunger. The desire to level up, to find some way of progression within the game, to acquire a nice number by your name that stands as an instant and clear testament to your experience... yes, it's a much lesser force than hunger. However it's evidently pretty important to a great number of people so I think it stands that it shouldn't be just dismissed. It's not at all a case of "Yes the system has some weird consequences but you don't NEED to level up so it's fine". We can't ignore the significance of the levelling system, its importance and power has to be acknowledged and I think it would be a great benefit to the game and its community if that force was harnessed for good rather than left in its current sorry state.

I think the core, greatest problem of the achievement based levelling is its inherent selfishness. In an XP based system, a victory would result in a benefit for the whole team - your teamwork has achieved mutual gain. I've already explained how I feel this would also encourage players to discover the importance of teamwork sooner as it is by far the strongest way of playing to win. In the current achievement based system, at best, a player quietly and privately finds a ship that suits the requirements of their achievement and gets to work. At worst, the player will demand changes to the ship or make choices for their own loadout that reduce their team's efficiency, refusing to co-operate with other players because they won't progress if they do. This is a really bad thing in such a teamwork based  game. I feel everything should be done to encourage teamwork and intuitively get across to new players the most fun and effective way to play the game whereas right now the level system, such a key motivator for some people, is optimised to be entirely divisive in nature.

The fact of most achievements being no fun, while in my opinion entirely true and yet another reason to scrap the whole system, is nothing like as important as the role of the levelling system in influencing how people play the game.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 11:52:40 am by Velvet »

Offline JaegerDelta

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2014, 12:49:25 pm »
are we doing this again?

i think you guys are looking at the levels from the wrong angle. they are not your rank, they are not an indicator of skill, they are infact an indicator of renown within the world.  as you preform more and more amazing feats of skill, word of your name spreads in the world, and you "level up"

this is reflected in how the unlocks are handled and even in how the community treats levels.

you only unlock cosmetic items, those cosmetic items are things you have collected in your travels, perhaps given by greatfull people you have helped or looted from towns you have raided. a "higher level" person, i.e. someone who has performed more amazing feats has clearly spent more time traveling and therefor has more cosmetic items.

as far as how people treat levels in game. they are taken as a mark of experience and skill; high levels are assumed to be good, while low levels are assumed to not know what they are doing untill they prove themselves.  Is this not how a famous person, regardless of actual skill, would be treated in the game world?  their actions have spread around the world and their reputation precedes them.  someone not as famous, lower level, would not have that same reputation and thusly assumed to be just an average joe untill they show their skill. 

with no unlocks that affect gameplay being a part of leveling up, an achievement based system is the only way a level system makes sense at all. you just gotta get your heads out of cod land.

furthermore, i think you are overestimating the segment of the population for whom leveling up is a main motivator.  secondary or tertiary sure, or they want a certain unlock so they have to level up to obtain it. but to have leveling up be THE reason they are playing the game, i just find it hard to believe that is a very large segment of any game.

Offline Velvet

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2014, 02:09:20 pm »
Quote
furthermore, i think you are overestimating the segment of the population for whom leveling up is a main motivator.  secondary or tertiary sure, or they want a certain unlock so they have to level up to obtain it. but to have leveling up be THE reason they are playing the game, i just find it hard to believe that is a very large segment of any game.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that the levelling system is an influence, not necessarily the main motivator - and that currently the way it is designed the influence is neative.

CoD is not by any means the only game to utilise an XP based levelling system. Same way 3D graphics are used in CoD - it doesn't mean 3D graphics should only be used in shallow CoD clones.

I don't think supposed "realism" is particularly important in game design and I strongly disagree with your contention that a player's level is considered to have anything to do with their fictional standing within the game world - particularly since it's been stated Adventure Mode will have a different levelling system. But to continue the idea, I think people would be more impressed if a pilot has won 1000 evenly matched battles than if said pilot has fought a few impractical battles at extreme range and got some fancy but inefficient kills against novice pilots with a minelauncher. If you care about lore plausibility, an XP system is a huge step up from completing a miscellaneous set of arbitrary tasks.

the heart of my point is that the achievements don't add a lot to the game and possibly take something away. Do people disagree that encouraging people to win would encourage them to discover that teamwork is the best way to play the game? cause I seriously can't believe that people could think that more teamplay for new players is bad thing, or less valuable than the purported increase in ship/loadout variety caused by achievements.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 02:17:49 pm by Velvet »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2014, 02:59:29 pm »
Adding extrisnic motivations for playing the game is just bad design. The way to make people try new tools is to make them fun to play, instead of showing them a carrot on a stick. We didn't have this problem before- blame the idiotic in-game popup window, one of the worst UI decisions muse has made in recent history. The worst part is that they mostly reward you for individual actions instead of teamwork.

The achievements were bad even before they started getting shoved in people's faces, but now people who otherwise wouldn't care about leveling do stupid un-fun things for stupid un-fun reasons. I actively resist leveling and achievement farming, and even I get distracted by the popups. Achievements used to be a small, semi-hidden part of the game that only a few people cared about and actively worked towards. They were still bad and un-fun, but until the in-game achievement window was added the effect was small. Now everybody has a direct on-screen incentive to act selfishly.

personally I would scrap the current leveling system, and replace with one based solely on wins against teams of equal or higher level. Specifically, everyone has a number of xp-points. If your individual number of xp-points is less than or equal to the enemy's team average xp-points, you gain an xp-point when you win a match against them. You never lose xp-points.

This system is dead-simple, easy to understand, promotes teamwork, prevents team stacking/farming n00bs. Sure, the rate of leveling slows down as you run out of high-level people to play against, but that just encourages you to participate in tournaments.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 03:12:40 pm by Omniraptor »

Offline JaegerDelta

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Re: Why the current level system is not good
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2014, 03:28:16 pm »
CoD is not by any means the only game to utilise an XP based levelling system. Same way 3D graphics are used in CoD - it doesn't mean 3D graphics should only be used in shallow CoD clones.

do you have to scare some crows away from your crops? why did you build this straw man?

no where did imply that cod is the only game with an xp based leveling system.

look, whether you agree with the renown approach or not, the fact remains that an xp based system is inappropriate for this game as there is no possibility for progression everything that matters in the game is already available to everyone. you will just have arbitrary numbers increasing until they reset to zero and start increasing again. it will be a measure of playtime more than anything else.  If an xp system is inappropriate then you have to use something else or not have a leveling system at all.

With the achievement system already built into the game and people already investing their time into it, there is no way to get rid of it without pissing people off. its here to stay in skirmish, thats just how it is. i personally dont care about the achievements either, but i dont think its as big of a problem as you guys are presenting it as, i very rarely run into anyone that is not willing to work together in favor of doing their achievement.