Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Point the Goldfish's guns forward
JaegerDelta:
--- Quote from: Wundsalz on April 04, 2014, 04:30:09 am ---There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.
--- End quote ---
you dont turn in the side guns. the side guns gain arc incidentally as you move and twist. you are not playing for high dps in a goldfish you dont need to be hitting every time. you just need to hit at the right time. when it is of most value to your team.
If you are flying a goldfish you must fly unexpectedly aggressively and aggressively defensive. with the speed of a goldfish you can weave in get some hits and get out, not easily mind you, the engineers need to be up to snuff. you can also fly in such a way that you target the ships targeting your allies. you can remove enemies from arc on your allies and you can just straight up remove the damage sources. giving your ally time to repair and kill the threat. (this all assumes you are using the hwatcha or carronade which are the most popular weapons on the goldfish, if you are going for a damage goldfish with the flak or lumber your gunner better be good because you have to be constantly changing target to what ever ship is the biggest threat/easiest pickings.)
by removing damage sources from your allies and thus preventing damage that was going to be taken, you are essentially healing your allies, in a round-a-bout way. the goldfish functions much like the cleric in 4th edition dungeons and dragons. yes you are supporting your allies but you are doing it by beating the fuck out of the most opportune enemy. and it becomes more and more useful the more allies you have.
if you turn the gun arcs forward you remove its capability to be hitting almost no matter what direction the ship is facing and moving, thus making it boring.
Velvet:
--- Quote from: redria on April 04, 2014, 01:01:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cpt Janeway on April 03, 2014, 07:42:33 pm ---in what universe is one light weapon viable?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Cpt Janeway on April 03, 2014, 07:42:33 pm ---a competent crew armed with even one merc or art.
--- End quote ---
From the same post you claim to be disabled and made useless by a single light weapon. Does the goldfish need some love? Probably. But is it this useless floating target that you seem to see it as? Certainly not.
I guess my concern is that if every ship and every gun can be viably used in competitive play (as things currently stand), then what happens when you buff something? Sure, the only instances of some things working are when one of the best players is using it, but how much is that player going to wreck the scene if you buff them?
Maybe that is the wrong outlook to have in a game with a delicate balance between making casual and competitive fun. But it is the feeling I have when people talk about buffing squid arcs, goldfish arcs, carronades, and flamers. They are all viable right now if just a little bit more risky.
@Velvet, I can post some videos... OVW and the Ducks scrim every Wednesday night. Alistair Silas has been bringing his goldfish pretty successfully, though he has limited internet and hasn't been able to participate in the more public events.
--- End quote ---
If you could post any videos that would be very helpful, thank you. As it is it's difficult for me to accept that all of the ships are competitively viable as all my experience suggests otherwise and that it's quite a narrow set of weapons and ships that are used to effect in competitive play. Maybe I might learn something new.
--- Quote from: JaegerDelta on April 04, 2014, 02:32:58 pm ---
--- Quote from: Wundsalz on April 04, 2014, 04:30:09 am ---There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.
--- End quote ---
you dont turn in the side guns. the side guns gain arc incidentally as you move and twist. you are not playing for high dps in a goldfish you dont need to be hitting every time. you just need to hit at the right time. when it is of most value to your team.
If you are flying a goldfish you must fly unexpectedly aggressively and aggressively defensive. with the speed of a goldfish you can weave in get some hits and get out, not easily mind you, the engineers need to be up to snuff. you can also fly in such a way that you target the ships targeting your allies. you can remove enemies from arc on your allies and you can just straight up remove the damage sources. giving your ally time to repair and kill the threat. (this all assumes you are using the hwatcha or carronade which are the most popular weapons on the goldfish, if you are going for a damage goldfish with the flak or lumber your gunner better be good because you have to be constantly changing target to what ever ship is the biggest threat/easiest pickings.)
by removing damage sources from your allies and thus preventing damage that was going to be taken, you are essentially healing your allies, in a round-a-bout way. the goldfish functions much like the cleric in 4th edition dungeons and dragons. yes you are supporting your allies but you are doing it by beating the fuck out of the most opportune enemy. and it becomes more and more useful the more allies you have.
--- End quote ---
The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.
--- Quote from: JaegerDelta on April 04, 2014, 02:32:58 pm ---if you turn the gun arcs forward you remove its capability to be hitting almost no matter what direction the ship is facing and moving, thus making it boring.
--- End quote ---
I do not see how highly varied gun angles are necessary when, as has already been discussed at length, the Goldfish is fantastically manoeuvrable and unlike a Mobula or Galleon doesn't need a gun arc in every direction to quickly attack enemies on any side.
Spud Nick:
Here is a scrim between GlowWater Thralls and Sacrilege.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykyq5wja1vk
JaegerDelta:
--- Quote from: Velvet on April 04, 2014, 02:54:00 pm ---The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.
--- End quote ---
The artemis only has the "final say" if you build this situation in such a way that soft cover does not matter and you are flying in a straight line. as it is in reality every single map has enough soft cover, if used to the fullest, a goldfish can move in close unseen. and by flying in a non-linear fashion you can dodge a great many artemis shots while you are far away. no gun is unbeatable. and if it is the question should be how to change that gun, not to design the game around imbalance.
--- Quote from: Velvet on April 04, 2014, 02:54:00 pm ---
I do not see how highly varied gun angles are necessary when, as has already been discussed at length, the Goldfish is fantastically manoeuvrable and unlike a Mobula or Galleon doesn't need a gun arc in every direction to quickly attack enemies on any side.
--- End quote ---
also the multiple gun arcs matter because you can fire then protect your heavy weapon by turning, shielding it with your ship, and still being able to put out some damage to support your ally. if you put the focus more towards frontal attacking, then it is actually more vulnerable to being locked down
Velvet:
--- Quote from: JaegerDelta on April 04, 2014, 03:26:03 pm ---
--- Quote from: Velvet on April 04, 2014, 02:54:00 pm ---The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.
--- End quote ---
The artemis only has the "final say" if you build this situation in such a way that soft cover does not matter and you are flying in a straight line. as it is in reality every single map has enough soft cover, if used to the fullest, a goldfish can move in close unseen. and by flying in a non-linear fashion you can dodge a great many artemis shots while you are far away. no gun is unbeatable. and if it is the question should be how to change that gun, not to design the game around imbalance.
--- End quote ---
There plenty of spots on maps that make an approach to brawling range extremely risky and difficult. And the Goldfish gets a very slow kill with only 1 gun firing at a time so you will still also suffer greatly from art or even gat disable at brawl range.
I don't feel the Artemis is hugely OP, as it is there is a lot of balance in sniping between mercs, artemis and hades and brawling teams have engaged teams centred around art builds to great effect. The fact that one weak ship is highly vulnerable to the predominant tactics makes me inclined to think the ship should be buffed rather than the tactics nerfed.
--- Quote ---also the multiple gun arcs matter because you can fire then protect your heavy weapon by turning, shielding it with your ship, and still being able to put out some damage to support your ally. if you put the focus more towards frontal attacking, then it is actually more vulnerable to being locked down
--- End quote ---
quick rebuild times of light guns and a tripled ability to return fire should make that a non-issue. I find it hard to see how this change could actually make the Goldfish weaker, even if it invalidates and changes certain tactics.
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