Author Topic: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)  (Read 41342 times)

Offline Puppy Fur

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2014, 08:27:12 pm »
Every group had a troublesome time I think. But I can only say for sure that I did. And Muse team getting to fight a team that wasn't used to practicing together without even signing up seems unfair. That was my thought process. It's supposed to be a challenge to be in Sky League. Not easy if you sign up late...

All opinions are of my own unless listed otherwise. :3 The group I was in was a huge challenge and that's what I like about competitive. That's what it should be.

Edit: The more fights the more challenging it gets. Every additional fight is more risk. The less fights your in or easier the match? Less risk.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2014, 11:30:26 pm »
It's not about getting put in a hard seed. The week before last a team got pushed through because of a no show. This last week Muse got played in to a no show, they were not signed up and ended up pub stomping inexperienced teams. This isn't about hard seeds its about rules being followed.
Except that's not what a pubstomp is. Yes, the teams were new, and we probably expected them to drop out, but they were still teams, afaik captains on skype with each other etc.

I really fail to see the big deal. Yeah, general rules were probably bent a little, but still only two teams made it out the group stages, and it's not like a previous team that lost got back in. So much butthurt about something that pretty much impacts you... zero amount.

Offline Mr. Ace Rimmer

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2014, 11:38:08 pm »
Imagine, I would like to request that you show a little respect to members of my team please. If you can't then please show a little professional courtesy by not commenting. To insinuate players in my clan are butt hurt over what they view as a genuine grievance, thus suggesting they should keep their mouths shut is highly disrespectful and unprofessional.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2014, 02:23:03 am »
Imagine, I would like to request that you show a little respect to members of my team please. If you can't then please show a little professional courtesy by not commenting. To insinuate players in my clan are butt hurt over what they view as a genuine grievance, thus suggesting they should keep their mouths shut is highly disrespectful and unprofessional.
I could say the same to you and your teammates berating the tournament organization repeatedly.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2014, 06:12:40 am »
I could say the same to you and your teammates berating the tournament organization repeatedly.

really?

I understand completely why some players are unhappy with this events constant changes and so forth.
It´s not just overwatch who are unhappy with this, I have had to tell my own team why all these changes have happened, and though they were unhappy i talked them into playing, this lead to several confusing things happening.

First off we signed up for a double elimination league, but that was changed and we said ok, it´s probaly because of the cesport/leto split, we just wanted to play since sunday rumble etc. are cancelled untill after this event.

the second thing that annoyed my teammates was that fiasco managed to sub for csr, forgetting the substitution rule, unfortunately this is our own mistake, and Nidh played one hell of a game with me leading us into seed 1 of group C. - but I still feel that this substitution rule needs to go away in future events.

then it struck me last sunday when we were paired vs the mandarins. Why is a seed 1 from both C and D paired against eachother? while seed 2 from the 5 team group is getting the free pass from week 0 and are seeded together with other seed 1 teams? this confuses me a lot, but I can see that the system doesnt allow for changes to this. the double elimination would have been the better option here.

please just take the critique we give. A lot of us are tired of changes in the competitive scene and we would just like to play without having to deal with last minute changes, rulebending or anything that seems unfair to other teams.

Offline redria

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2014, 08:36:55 am »
Overall, I'm just playing in a competitive match and looking at it as either you get to the finals and win, or you lose. Whether we get redemption chances or not, it boils down to whether you win or lose. Noone is getting free passes on matches, and while the bracket here may be a little silly in pitting 1 seeds against each other so quickly, in the end you have to win to advance so you would have to be good enough to beat these teams anyway. Naturally there is more to it than that, but these competitions don't determine the best. That's impossible. They determine the best at a certain time/place/situation. So unless we start advancing the losing team, changes don't bother me too much.

That said, the rules should encompass situations like this. There should be rules governing how to handle all foreseeable situations. And let's be honest, teams not showing up was foreseeable. A lack of casters, due to time or a splitting up, is not impossible to see. The fact that the rules don't handle this (or that there are a hidden set of rules somewhere that I haven't seen) is my bigger cause for concern.

What if a team fails to show further down the line? Is a team advanced without an opponent, or does the most recent conquest of that team get a redemption chance? What if a match drops into slow-mo in the middle of an engagement, or permanent slow-mo when no team is heavily damaged? Will you restart the match on a new server and allow that team to gain brand new ships? Relatedly, how does slow-mo affect the match timer?

I don't mind changes. I honestly don't. As long as I get my shot to play, I know I have to win or get knocked out. Whatever else happens is fine with me. But for an event to be premiere, a headliner, the new competitive scene... There should be contingencies for every one of these situations and more. We shouldn't be left sitting around wondering what will happen, what will change next.

TL;DR: The changes don't bother me, but either this or whatever follows it needs to have clearly laid out contingencies for every conceivable situation.

~edit for fun~
Imagine, I would like to request that you show a little respect to members of my team please. If you can't then please show a little professional courtesy by not commenting. To insinuate players in my clan are butt hurt over what they view as a genuine grievance, thus suggesting they should keep their mouths shut is highly disrespectful and unprofessional.
I could say the same to you and your teammates berating the tournament organization repeatedly.
We are all in the wrong. Let's be honest.
Imagine, you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions. We enjoyed our fight to get into the bracket stage. I had a blast at least. We are more commenting on the general status of a tournament that puts 4 teams together who, on a good day, could all probably get to the finals, while allowing a team to join past the deadline into a group where only one of the teams had a shot of making it through any fights at all (sorry new teams >.<). We aren't complaining, Just pointing out flaws.
Ace, I appreciate you getting defensive on our behalf, but the more we post, the more we misinterpret each other. Some things need to be let go of or approached in private messages.  :P <3
And you redria, you aren't the police of these forums, you aren't a mod or a CA, and you aren't doing a good job of it anyway. You don't run this tournament, and even if you have your own ideas for a premier league, they should be discussed elsewhere. Go take your strange ideas elsewhere. If you think changes should be made to the structure of this event, I'm sure they can be discussed after the event has concluded.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 08:52:58 am by redria »

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2014, 10:31:59 am »
Hey guys,
Just wanted to hop in. First of all it was never our intent to cause any frustration.  We really just wanted to join and try our best in some high level games, but due to some miscommunication and traveling on our end we missed the sign up.
Urz was kind enough to let us in, but only if a team dropped out. I can't speak for him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he offered this kindness to any other team in the same situation.
This does bring up a good point though solid open rules are always good to have.

I do believe there are a lot of constructive ideas here and now that these things have happened it's easier to think of solutions.  Trust me even from our side it's easy to gloss over important rules and features because it just doesn't come up.
I think Skrimskraw has the right idea in this is a critique. It's not fun to hear something wasn't done perfect or should be improved, but as long as it's objective and not malicious it means we still all share the same goal which is a great competitive event.

Though I do have to say even if Urz, or anyone, works for a year straight on an event, chances are something is going to come up that wasn't thought of. As many can recall there was a giant teamspeak meeting beforehand and no team brought up teams dropping out, which gives that bracket an unfair advantage. As in this case where if we were not allowed to join in both teams could have gone through without a single battle.

Offline Mr. Ace Rimmer

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2014, 10:49:05 am »
There were 5 teams in Bracket E, Bracket E could have been shrunk to four teams with a team from E being drawn into D. Would this have been a perfect solution.. of course not. The team from E that got moved to D may not have been happy with the move, and like we are complaining now, would have had a right to raise it as an issue. The fact that Urz seemed so sure that Phalanx wouldn't turn up complicates matters though. As does the fact that there were no shows with no replacements the week before. Essentially, there was a solution available that didn't involve bringing in a clan that hadn't signed up.

In essence, Urz was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. One things for sure, I'm pretty sure that had a hard deadline been set, none of this would have happened because if it had, the potential fall out would have been much more than using 20/20 hindsight to raise objections.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2014, 11:41:16 am »
Not going to bother with super long quotes buuuuut...

@Skrimskraw:
What you've brought up has some valid concerns, unlike some others. I would say that one could argue that there has been a double elimination portion since that's what group stages were. As for the rest of the tournament, I would like to point out that when Leto pulled out it left the entire tournament scrambling to find streams to be on making double elim bracket either extremely long or otherwise just undoable. Yes, you could argue that we could've had it anyways and that the non-streamed games just could've been played, except for the fact that other than those of us casting/streaming, afaik no other referees signed up to help out (probably due to the fact that everyone is playing). I don't think I have to point out what a bad idea it is to have games without refs being played as the litany of issues that can arise from that are... innumerable.
As for seeding into bracket rounds... can't comment on that, wasn't involved in that decision making.

@redria:
From the day of when a few of your clan's members were... well, basically bitching about what happened in twitch chat to here in what has now stretched to over a page, at some point enough is enough. You guys have somehow made it out to be as if you were a victim of some great injustice, something which just plainly makes no sense given that groups were randomly determined, and what teams made it out of other groups basically have no bearing on how your group played out. You and your teammates could've very well talked to Urz about this in PM's or skype or whatever, instead you chose to complain repeatedly in a public space and then freaked out even more when someone opposed.

Look guys, frankly, even with the... group D problems, we actually had an amazing last two weeks of gameplay with some incredible moments. It saddens me that this crap is getting attention while all the great play is basically being nullified. I really do think that there's a whole lot of something being made out of basically nothing so just... cool it (myself included, I suppose).

Offline Puppy Fur

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2014, 12:08:07 pm »
I disagree that it is 'nothing' and also disagree that anyone has claimed to be victims. I do not understand your reasoning for thinking such things but it does mean that we will most likely not find any sort of agreement. I stand by my statement that I dislike that a late sign up gets a match against an unpracticed team but understand why the choice was made and shall continue on with the Sky League.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2014, 12:51:26 pm »
@skrim:
I'm pretty sure this was mostly to make the tournament run a little smoother. Those in group E generally played more matches than those in the other groups. Well, at least the E2 seed. If you put the E group back to round 0, that leaves us with 3 matches and 3 teams moving into round 1, which already has 4 teams and leads to an odd number of teams. Basically because of the weird group sizes and odd number of groups things were bound to get weird in the bracket stage, and this method is probably as good as it could get.



-------------------

I think the issue is less about certain teams having to face challenging teams, while others get a pretty easy series of matches; and more to do with a team (could be any team) being able to join after the sign-ups, and more importantly, after the tournament had already started. The 'sure, you can join in if some other team drops out' rule was never publicly disclosed or discussed. If it was a rule, that would have been fine, and if it was made public we might have seen some other teams be able to join in and fill up the numbers.

Even then, joining after the start of the tournament and with hardly any warning to any teams, let alone the team they were going to be playing against, just isn't cool. Every other team had proper notification of who they were playing and where, and any switches that needed to be done were done well in advance. If they were going to replace a no-show, they should have been against Holy in the first Group matches. Instead they joined after that and joined during the next Group stages.

Essentially this caused a team that signed up in advance and barely managed to get together a 'full' team (There wasn't any defined rules on team sizes either, but it's generally implied that teams are 8 people) got eliminated by some team showing up at the last minute.


I feel that all of the negative side effects of this decision were unintentional, and those involved just wanted to make it a fun event. But it is still upsetting to those who have been playing by the rules outlined for the tournament. Even with this hiccup, I expect it to be a good tournament.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2014, 01:51:52 pm »
I kinda understand what skrim means.
There is no reward in winning your group as first place.
Usually in other games you get a better seed for a better placement you managed to grab before the new seed.
And even with your explanation for grp E which has a point there are still 4 other groups which couldve used their second place in the first round instead of using 2 first places in that round.
But yeah maybe the bracket system does not allow those advanced seeding methods and just places ppl randomly.

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2014, 02:32:54 pm »
Clarification on group D: Keyvias contacted me earlier in the week and asked if there was a way Muse could participate, as they hadn't signed up. I told him that I was expecting at least one no-show (Phalanx Infamia who to this point has not provided any communication beyond their signup), and that they could have the first no-show slot if Muse had a full team ready. As it turned out, not only did Phalanx not show, but the two other teams in the group (MAG and Clockwork Cavalry) only brought a single ship each. The result was that those two teams played together, and Museosaurs took one of the two empty slots for a total of three played games.
I fully support Urz decision here. In general I believe allowing as many people who are interested in the competitive scene to participate in events like this is a good cause and in this particular case I doubt it will influence the outcome of the tournament significantly anyway.
Also I've been ok with the gent-team swaps.
While I can see how such rule-bending can cause frustration, I prefer reasonable gut decisions for cases like these over a excessively long rule-paper covering every possible event the tournament organization might possibly want to react to.

Offline Sir Yosh

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Re: Sky League Group Assignment & Update (3/22 & 3/29 @ 4pm EDT / 8pm UTC)
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2014, 02:54:18 pm »
I enjoy the games and that's what matters the most :)

We won't be able to play against Muse, but it's great that people who made this game do NOT want us to win the Adventure Mode so easily :D I think it's awesome there is a Muse team, as long as we get to destroy them ;)

Off-topic: If it's called a "league" we should have had like a football league system (European football, not that American rugby-like thing with throwing the ball) :D