Artemis

[HamsterIV]

Triple Artemis may not kill as quickly as other combos, but in a 1v1 it will eventually get the kill and keep your ship reasonably safe in the process. In a 2v2 encounter you can split your guns between two targets to reduce the enemy team's DPS while your ally focuses down a target. It is only the 2v1 against you that the Artemis strategy falls apart, but by that point you are pretty screwed no matter what strategy you try.

@Zill
I tried heat sink for the turn rate, but it is pretty situational. Mostly quick shots with the side gun on a fast moving Pyra.

[Captain Phil]

Well then something to ask is who here doesn't immediately toss burst ammo into them? Sure there are options but burst seems to be a rather cut and dry choice that could be making the Artemis better with no drawbacks.

So lets look at burst ammo, More shots, more aoe, and a slight reduction in firing speed. I see nothing but perks since lower firing speed is alright because the enemy cannot shoot you anyhow because you blew their guns up.

[Sammy B. T.]

In the world of spanner rebuilds the extra time between shots matters. Just because an artemis trifecta can beat you* doesn't mean it is op as there are plenty of counters. Vertical movement, long range disables, staying above arc, and allied help all come to mind.

Hit box size / the way aoe effects it could be something to look into, perhaps have a seperate direct hit vs aoe hit hit box where the aoe hitbox is similar to the old size.

* Edit, to clarify. You in this situation means general you, not a specific player.

[HamsterIV]

I haven't been loosing to Artemis trifectas so much as I have been getting easy victories from them. They short circuit the Rusher < Brawler < Sniper < Rusher dynamic by being a sniper that can shut down both a rusher and brawler at range. There are too many situations where dumping a steady stream of Artemis shots into a target is viable

[Coldcurse]

gatling gun and artemis combination does a decent job

[Skrimskraw]

we countered it yesterday with a mobula, you can see it in the stream of the sunday rumble.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

I'll still point out that it could easily murder our Pyra teammate when theyy focused on him.
Yes 1on2 tri art junker does suck like any other build in 1on2. when you have another 3art junker backing you up. Assuming both junkers have enough time to dissable you you don't stand a chance. Spire, junker,goldfish and galleon are pretty much out against artemis gun line- unless you have guners that can reliably hit outside artemis range with merc, LJ and h.Flak spam.
Mobula IS a reasonable-to-good counter since the guns are spread out and engines are outside artemis line of sight from front, mobula has best vertical mobility (witch is waht you need agains armenis with severely limited upward arc of fire - heck going up with a pyramidion saved us from 3art junker against Mad Hatters a couple of weeks ago when our frond and engines were dissabled).
I do think Artemis is OP, but very little (i would a: increase maximum upwards angle by 5° decrease horizontal arc by 5°bo both sides, decrease AoE size and damage no more than 10%, and then I think it would be just fine - or b: more heavily penalise direct hit explosive damage component [up to 50%] keep same shatter damage on aoe component, and keeo pther changes the same as in option a)

EDIT: Squid Mobula against double max artemis junker could work well too. Spitting your ship verticaly so they come at diffirent heighs, so junkers cant switch targets immediately, should help. It's waht we used aginst entranched artemis gun line on fjords.

[Byron Cavendish]

In the world of spanner rebuilds the extra time between shots matters. Just because an artemis trifecta can beat you* doesn't mean it is op as there are plenty of counters. Vertical movement, long range disables, staying above arc, and allied help all come to mind.

Hit box size / the way aoe effects it could be something to look into, perhaps have a seperate direct hit vs aoe hit hit box where the aoe hitbox is similar to the old size.

* Edit, to clarify. You in this situation means general you, not a specific player.

Yep. Certainly the trifecta arti is powerful, but op? No. As a heavy user of them on my team I can tell you it has glaring weaknesses. People have just gotten so used to short ranged brawling that they can't or don't want to believe other builds should be strong. The key to any successful team is to be aware of every build, and every builds counter. You can't just blindly rush a trifecta arti with brawl and hope to win. And it shouldn't be like that. Look at this last Sunday's Rumble. The Wolf Knights tried to charged the dug in Gents and failed. The Thralls thought outside the box, came up with a new mobula build, and schooled us. If a gun has a weakness (arti's vertical movement), you exploit it. That is how metas evolve.

[Byron Cavendish]

On another note, Artemis trifecta has been available for ages with roughly the same disable and kill potential that has today. It has not suddenly become op, people have just started using it and their opponents haven't heard of hydrogen or cloud cover.

This. It has more to do with the fact that the game was recently balanced less around strong brawl builds, but instead making short, mid, and long range all have viable options. This is forcing brawl teams to re-think how they engage, something that can be initially very frustrating.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Yeah I think the emphasis of this thread was not to say it is Op but to say it could use some slight tuning. Why it was originally in the dev section.

It can be seen as OP if you don't know how to counter it or if your teammate is a dingus and doesn't coordinate with you. New players would probably tear their eyes out in anguish against it. What I don't want is their anguish and cries of OP leading to another dramatic nerfing which makes the gun useless.

Slight reduction in AOE with turning so it can't get Trifectas as easily would probably be a decent move. That or a tad less killing power and focus it more on disabling like it was the last time it was buffed.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

Mobula's double gat + whatever explosive damage works well agains junkers. Single gat deals armor damage to junker too slow (jitter => gat misses more shots on junkers slim profile) and it takes a single gatling 2-3 clips to destroy armor. Double gat deals so much more damage that it only dakes 2x 1/2-3/4 gat clip to kill the same armor - i think junker's armor can last RELATIVELY close to galleon's armor against gatling). As a brawler you have to kill armor as fast as possible.

[Crafeksterty]

I have to be honest, while reading this, snipers have very little option in terms of weapons.

BUT NO ONE IS USING MERCS!
No one uses Mercs, or Lumberjacks properly anymore. Heavy flaks is something i havent seen in a long time even tho i love seing the heavy flak bust a ship into 2.
But there is a pattern to the other weapons.

Gats work best with Mortars
L.Flaks work best with Hadez
Mercs work best with Artemis.  (All light guns)

Yet the Artemis can sort of work very well with gats or many other weapons because of its flexability.

I remember some time ago commenting on the Spire changes how tripple Art + LJ is going to wreck... which i dont see alot of. Im just giving out ideas, i want to see more guns being utilized as being OP and disect them to their not so OPness so we can find guns that are UP. If that ment anything.

[Byron Cavendish]

Well I would like to use mercs with two artis on a junker, but the arcs dont work. Fix the arc on the merc, and sure we'll use it. Gents also use lumberjacks quite a lot, so did Paddling. But that gun takes actual skill and training to use, and many teams don't put that amount of work into it.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

We wanted to bring a lumber spire to Paritan last sunday against gents but our LJ gunners were not awailable so we had to make do with a bit more simple heavy gun

[Crafeksterty]

Well I would like to use mercs with two artis on a junker, but the arcs dont work. Fix the arc on the merc, and sure we'll use it. Gents also use lumberjacks quite a lot, so did Paddling. But that gun takes actual skill and training to use, and many teams don't put that amount of work into it.

WAit, so just, fix the arc on the merc for your junker? Really? One ship is never enough to be effective with a merc, same goes for 3 artemis. You need 6 Artemis to be really devestating. But you only need 2 merc and 2 artemis (thats 2 junkers) to be just as devestating in regards to armor and focus.

You can use 2 artemis and a merc on one spire/Mobula.  Have 2 of those ships with 1merc 2arts, you pretty much have a more hard hitting team.
The argument against those is pretty simple, they are easy to get hit with (spire atleast) But you still have a heavy weapon as an option. Dont always HAVE to use the heavy weapon, but the effect of it is alot.   The mobula is as weak as the Spire in terms of health and armor and is more difficult to keep up, but you can still use vertical meneuvering to align your sniper shots. You only need 3 people, and from sniper perspective, no brawling ammount of repairing will take place.

Now, what i dont get is why are people trying to discuss the Artemis as oposed to the Hades?
Does anyone notice the power of the Hades?!