Ship Scrambling and Other Upcoming Features

[N-Sunderland]

That's pretty much all there is to say about it. Lobbies will be constantly dying from entire teams leaving, and that'll just amplify the already long wait times between matches. There's just so much more harm than good that can come from this system.

[ramjamslam]

Scrambling the boats by force isn't going to solve anything, unless the number of lobbies waiting to play was too low.

When I play in the evenings (my time) there is usually only 1 or 2 games going.  These matches during the off peak times aren't the ones that are stacked imo, and we are also catering for the brand new players in these matches as there aren't any novice matches on at this time.  I think scrambling will be chaos for captains though - do the captains get scrambled with the rest of the crew?

I don't think we can really test how a standard pub match will react to this in the dev app so we will just have to wait and see.  It would be good if Muse were able to feature switch this off if it wasn't getting a good reaction, or make scrambling an option for players when creating a match.

[Spud Nick]

I think that players will just leave the match to make a new one. Good captains usually want to fly with other good captains.

[Dev Bubbles]

Hi everyone, thanks for the feedback! 
Ok, here are some questions for you guys: 
1.  If a well organized, or "stacked," team moves and create another lobby, would you consider that to be a form of match balance itself?  Why or why not?  And what do you guys think would be the result of a stacked team leaving a match to create or join another? 
2.  If we do create another type of match called "Competitive" in addition to Novice and regular, how should we definite the level criteria for entry or qualification into that match? 
3.  If we make Scramble an option for match creator, what type(s) of players do you think would create scrambled matches?

[Piemanlives]

I'm going to answer the ones I have a decent grasp on.

3. In my opinion players who are running training sessions would find this a fairly nifty thing, for instance if one side of the training lobby is doing really well after x amount of matches things would be switched around and they might be able to lend some tips and tricks they've learned to others, of course they could just do so manually but that's not the point really.

2. I think players who have done 1 or more of the following:

• Played through all of the tutorials and gotten to at least 3 in at least 2 classes (there are only three after all)
• Have 100 (or something like that) matches under their belt.
• Gotten to 4 in at least 2 classes (Tutorial not required)
• Etc. Feel free to edit this list as necessary

[Spud Nick]

It would be better to have more match types were players are segregated by skill level (matches played) but not restricted. That way new players could still learn a few things from the veterans but still have a place where they can play against people of the same skill level.

[Cl ick to Ca p t ain]

Hi everyone, thanks for the feedback! 
Ok, here are some questions for you guys: 
1.  If a well organized, or "stacked," team moves and create another lobby, would you consider that to be a form of match balance itself?  Why or why not?  And what do you guys think would be the result of a stacked team leaving a match to create or join another? 
2.  If we do create another type of match called "Competitive" in addition to Novice and regular, how should we definite the level criteria for entry or qualification into that match? 
3.  If we make Scramble an option for match creator, what type(s) of players do you think would create scrambled matches?

2.  If we do create another type of match called "Competitive" in addition to Novice and regular, how should we definite the level criteria for entry or qualification into that match? 

I don't think it's really needed if you call it competitive, since some clans (AK for example) take in new blood and train them. So adding a level req for a competitive lobby would only be detrimental. A simple notifier that these lobbies are for organized teams, and that those coming in at random are likely to be rolled on repeatedly should suffice.

[GreyTea]

This idea is very cool and starts to address stacking issues, in my oppion there is a number of changes that can be made, a request balance option that unready all the teams and balances the lobby,
or how about making a lobby with a balanced option like stated so when you join you are locked into a ship on joining that is auto balanced,
Do not make it compulsive on every public game just a type of game or go one further and make a fully all random match,
just for fun mode, random ships and loadouts but with balanced teams ^^, 

[RearAdmiralZill]

Hi everyone, thanks for the feedback! 
Ok, here are some questions for you guys: 
1.  If a well organized, or "stacked," team moves and create another lobby, would you consider that to be a form of match balance itself?  Why or why not?  And what do you guys think would be the result of a stacked team leaving a match to create or join another? 
2.  If we do create another type of match called "Competitive" in addition to Novice and regular, how should we definite the level criteria for entry or qualification into that match? 
3.  If we make Scramble an option for match creator, what type(s) of players do you think would create scrambled matches?

1. I wouldn't, because in my last few sessions, the player count cant support that many lobbies. They will end up sitting in that lobby forever waiting (and possibly getting people who don't know better and then grind em), and either leave to play something else or join a lobby that can house them. The result will be lobby chains from win streak to another with a "stacked" team, and the lobby they leave will either fill up or die out and itll just be an ugly cycle.

2. I don't think the community needs a "competitive" match. Those are honestly in the form of private games already when we schedule scrims, or if we both have enough people, just make that lobby happen. The player base couldn't sustain the branches of lobbies in my opinion and you'd never see "competitive" matches outside tournaments.

3.Personally, it would depend on what I had at the moment. Let me explain. If I log in, and im alone or have a couple friends on, ill make a scramble lobby. Ill play, let the mechanics work themselves out, and maybe find a crew/team i like. I will then go make a non-scramble lobby to keep that team. People come and go a lot lately, so i might not ever make it to that non-scramble anyway.

Those with a team they like will make that non-scramble. "Stacked teams" will also do that. Perhaps color coding the different lobby's font (scramble/non-scramble) will let players see what they are entering.

Also, making it default to a scramble match (the options that is) will stop new players from just making a lobby and getting themselves killed. Then you force people to intentionally make that non-scramble.

Appreciate the questions Bubbles.

[geggis]

As a captain, if I end up being on a stacked team I suggest my crew and I switch over to keep the game entertaining, so naturally I welcome the swap feature with open arms.

With regards to the ship scrambling, and in addition to the above: I honestly don't care about playing with my buddies provided I have a reliable or receptive crew on my own ship (these can be randoms or friends/clanmates) and the game stays enjoyable for as many people as possible (by virtue that the winning teams are now scrambled to be with the losers). Stomping just leads to people getting angry and quitting and if there are fewer players there are fewer games. I personally think leaving a lobby and starting another just because you can't play with your friends on other ships, especially if you haven't got the numbers to make another full game, is damaging to the community as a whole because more people are left waiting around for longer to get into a match which in turn can lead to more people quitting. It's often painful enough waiting for lobbies full of experienced players to hit those Ready buttons, never mind waiting for a lobby to fill up in the first place.

Playing against friends (and taunting them in party chat) in a 'balanced' game is way more fun to me than absent-mindedly stomping the other team. Recently Valiant set up a lobby to play some practice pub games but the sheer number of clan tags in the lobby (around 12) put players off the moment they entered. We sat waiting for a fair while before I suggested we switch teams about to make the lobby more attractive and, sure enough, in no time we had a full lobby and a succession of fun games ensued. I think that's a much healthier way of doing things and the scramble feature looks set to try and promote that by doing it automatically after x amount of stomps. Anything but stomps can be great fun so trying to prevent them is a good step as far as I'm concerned.

Above all, players need to stick together and keep playing, and preferably in games rather than waiting in lobbies. I know it can be annoying playing with inexperienced or downright bad captains or crew but splicing them in with other better and more experienced crews is going to bring out the best in the more receptive players and cultivate growth rather than snuffing out any enthusiasm they had because the stompers wanted to stay together. Wanting to stay with the good teams all the time to the detriment of other players' experience just seems like terrible sportsmanship to me.

I don't see how the result of implementing this feature can be anything but a net gain though:

With ship scramble feature:
Ships get scrambled, winners are coupled with losers, nobody leaves to start another lobby = more balanced games ensue (technically)
Ships get scrambled, winners are coupled with losers, former winners get mardy and start another lobby = everyone waits longer to start a match
Before ships get scrambled, winners opt to swap with other ships voluntarily = more balanced games ensue (technically)

Without scramble feature:
Ships don't get scrambled, winners opt to swap with other players voluntarily = more balanced games ensue (technically)
Ships don't get scrambled, winners keep winning, losers get angry and quit or leave match to find a more balanced game = everyone waits longer to start a match

My only reservation would be the scumbags who'd surrender or intentionally lose to avoid the scramble, but who would do that? And would that behaviour be reportable? I rarely see trolls so this seems like a very remote possibility to me. The chance of former stompers leaving en masse seems more plausible but still undignified and every bit as damaging as the act of sustained stomping.

[RearAdmiralZill]

You misinterpret what we mean when we say we wish to stick with a good team. If I get into a lobby by myself, have a random crew and random ally captain who listens and is generally inviting, then that to me is a good team. Good team does not = Scrimmage team (aka all friends/clan buddies).

Then on the other side, you have one decent boat, but then one that has the unresponsive captain with two gunners, and even the captain would be a gunner. His boat is all harpoons. Normally those ships dissolve pretty fast because they cant figure out why they lose all the time, despite our advice to remedy it. Then the forced swap happens. The two decent guys team up, and im left with a mix bag. You aren't balancing anything. You just trade from a team that can potentially win to a team that is pretty much dead when the game starts. This is why people will leave 95% of the time to make a new lobby. We aren't actively giving the finger to the community we have for so long tried to foster since beta.

[dragonmere]

Hi everyone, thanks for the feedback! 
Ok, here are some questions for you guys: 
1.  If a well organized, or "stacked," team moves and create another lobby, would you consider that to be a form of match balance itself?  Why or why not?  And what do you guys think would be the result of a stacked team leaving a match to create or join another? 
2.  If we do create another type of match called "Competitive" in addition to Novice and regular, how should we definite the level criteria for entry or qualification into that match? 
3.  If we make Scramble an option for match creator, what type(s) of players do you think would create scrambled matches?

1. If an actual team (read: organized) is forced to leave their lobby every 5 games due to a game 'mechanic' it's not balanced. Its punishing the team that wants to play together. I don't see how this could be beneficial at all. New lobby, same team. How is this better than when an unorganized team filters out of a 'stacked' lobby now? Just more waiting for the actual team.
2. No level restriction on "competitive" lobbies. "Competitive" lobbies should have Scramble disabled. And make it PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that it' a competitive game. And non-default. That's all. The 'stacking' teams will handle the rest.
3. Casual players who are still learning the game, or don't just give half a crap about teamwork or actually learning will create scrambled matches. Let them play together.


Now, I'm going break the usual brown-nosing streak that goes along with every time a dev posts. If you're easily flustered, I recommend you stop reading now.

I am really starting to question the direction MUSE is taking the development of this game. Not content with constantly and drastically changing the weapons and tools in the name of 'balance', they have now decided to attempt 'balancing' the actual composure of teams. MUSE needs to decide what type of product they intend to produce, and then make THAT game.

Trying to please every single user who makes a post was probably awesome a year ago, when the community was only 100s of players, and all on the same basic level of experience. If this game is going to continue to grow, this practice will go from being exceedingly difficult to actually detrimental to the development of the game.  Stop worrying about CONSTANT balance fixes. If their game is good, we'll play it. If it isn't, MUSE/GoIO doesn't deserve our time.

'Balancing' every single aspect the game for the sake of saying "Look its ALL balanced!" and catering to people who refuse to tolerate a learning curve makes no sense to me. If someone wants this game to absolutely hold their hand, and make every single match a 100% statistically 'balanced' and 'even', what is the point? Why are we playing? Why not create a virtual 16 player coin-flip simulator with steampunk hats?

Learning curves come with a benefit and pay off. This games learning curve isn't tough, but rather just unconventional. It requires you to form teams/clans. How many pub groups are there in tournament play? None. Hell, its usually directly stated in the rules. Establish a team, enter the team into the tournament. This is because in order to reach the potential of any ship, you NEED an organized team.

I am bewildered as to why consensus has seemingly been reached that organized teams need to be 'dealt with'. To me, this is saying 'Play this game, and get good - but not too good - or else!' or is evidence that the clan aspect of game play is being completely overlooked by MUSE as an actual asset of game play. It is an asset. It's the only reason I play this game anymore.

Don't get me wrong; Helping new players is wonderful! Give them tutorials, give them novice matches, give them CAs, mentors, training days, user-guides, youtube video tips, etc. Hell yes. Once an individual has utilized all these things, the only thing that stands between them and victory is their team mates and opponents.

But why don't we give them an easy and intuitive way to JOIN a group? Instead, it seems everyone (apparently MUSE very much included) are rallying against people who have taken the time and effort (and it takes LOTS) to form very effective groups in the absence of such a system. If EVERYONE had a group/team/clan, wouldn't the issue of 'stacked' go out the window? Wouldn't that make the people who are on these 'stacked' teams happy as well, as they get to face better competition? Why is this not an option? Help new players, help established teams, help the community, no one gets 'punished'. Well, except the people who flat refuse to play as a team rather than an individual, but I don't think we should encourage that mind-frame of play anyway.

If I'm completely in the wrong about balance-obsession and it truly is the only way for this game to progress, I've noticed something that should take 100% of our attention. Through extensive data analysis and spectating, I've found irrefutable empirical evidence that crew load outs aren't even remotely balanced. 99% of ships have at least one engineer with a Mallet/Spanner combo. It's clearly OP. A ship with a Mallet/Spanner engineer is able to repair their parts much too quickly. It's not fun for new players. This lack of balance is clearly breaking the game.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I hope you realize that ranting like that won't do much besides solidify their positions, and understandably ignore your post despite the feedback trickled in there that can help them figure out the best course of action.

For all intents and purposes, lets keep this thread civil please. That's directed at all posters.

[dragonmere]

Has censorship seriously reached the level where I can't say that I disagree with MUSE without getting a 'be civil' warning from a mod? There was no profanity, 'trolling' or harassment in my post. It was not ranting, out of line, or off topic. Nothing to warrant even a casual warning.

This "moderate/lock/delete if you disagree" mentality is very bad for the community in my opinion.  Censorship is always bad.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Know that I am totally incapable of moderating this thread as I am an active poster in it with my own opinions. I'm posting my opinion, and not with mod mentality.

You can pm me if you have an issue with that. I'd rather not derail this thread as I'm sure you can agree it's rather important.