1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE

[RearAdmiralZill]

And that's a choice you make and completely up to you to do so. Not knocking that. The other side of the coin has to be there though, even if you choose to not use it.

it is, it's called using another gun.  not all guns need to be good at all things or even multiple things.  some guns can be good at one thing and suck really bad at all other things.  the shorter range you make something the less variety you will see since you can no long trade dps for longer range or choose not to.   short range weapons only give you one choice,  how to do the thing it was designed to do best.

What?

We're talking strictly ammo for the gat here. If there is only one viable ammo type for a gun, then something is wrong with the gun (or ammo, but usually it's the gun). There are different methods of achieving the same result of a gun. For gat, it was either heavy for precise aim at the cost of dps, or greased for added dps at the cost of aim and less range. Trade offs. Both get the result, but in a different manner based on what the captain wants.

@Sprayer, you need to give us a reason as to buff carronades other then because someone can get a mallet hit in and save themselves for a few seconds. That just makes good sense over a sure balloon pop in one clip regardless.

every gun doesn't have to do their "job" in one clip else they are broken/underpowered.

[-Mad Maverick-]

right dude, I agree but the issue here is with such a short range there is no option of a trade off.  I am all for for giving it a longer range again to give options back but as it is the gat had been put in a corner.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well we don't agree there because I feel the range change is perfectly fine, and range doesn't back a gun into a corner in terms of what it can do. You can use a gat to disable heavy guns with heavy. You can use incend to spread a few fires. While not it's intended job, it can still do it.

We're also doing loops on this argument though so we think the point got across at least. I hope.

[-Mad Maverick-]

Well we don't agree there because I feel the range change is perfectly fine, and range doesn't back a gun into a corner in terms of what it can do. You can use a gat to disable heavy guns with heavy. You can use incend to spread a few fires. While not it's intended job, it can still do it.

We're also doing loops on this argument though so we think the point got across at least. I hope.

yeah what we may or may not be disagreeing on is how a gun and ammo pairing's "effectiveness" should be gauged.  if what your asking is "does incindiary start fires?" well yes it sure does.  but if what you're saying is that "if it doesn't set fires very well then we need to rethink things" (this is a for instance) that doesn't make sense to me.

  all I was pointing out is that greased is the most effective ammo for doing the thing that gat was designed to do.  it sounded like to me your response was "if a statement like that can be made about one single ammunition type than something is broken.". if that is indeed what you are saying I am simply stating that I disagree, that for some guns whose roles are so limited and range so short there may be a clear optimal ammo type and that is fine.

[The Djinn]

...but if what you're saying is that "if it doesn't set fires very well then we need to rethink things" (this is a for instance) that doesn't make sense to me.

Wait...WHAT? If Incendiary is supposed to set fires, and it doesn't set fires very well, why wouldn't we need to rethink things? It would mean the ammo type isn't actually doing what it is designed to do.

...that for some guns whose roles are so limited and range so short there may be a clear optimal ammo type and that is fine.

I strongly disagree, as the role of the gunner is predicated upon multiple ammo types being useful. I feel that any time a single ammo type is always the best choice on a gun the role of gunner suffers, and things should at least be looked at. Change isn't required, but it must be a conscious decision to allow that sort of ammo dominance.

[JaceBoojah]

Hello everyone!  I have not read ANY of the previous posts.

I used to be very serious about this game and collected stats and made charts on every gun. then I stopped playing for I don't even know how many patches.
I think this gives me a very good point of view on the current  balance of the game.
Yesterday I did a lot of testing on the light killing guns (piercing/explosive).  Here are my notes:

Before (when gat/mortar was king)
PIERCING:

GATLING: The best at armor stripping.  If you were not sniping you NEED one to be anything but a disabler.
MERCURY: great for disabling ships and the only option for piercing damage at long range.  Not a close range option.
HADES: N/A

EXPLOSIVE:

MORTAR: THE choice for close range hull breaking with the ability to hit at mid range.  NEEDED if you were a killing brawler in competitive play.
L FLAK: no longer the killing king and sometimes used with mid ranged killing builds with minor competitive play success.
ARTIMUS: (post buff then nerf) disabler with neglectable explosive damage.
BANSHEE:  easiest gun to shoot. THE WORST GUN IN THE GAME I very often said. 

Now
PIERCING:

GATLING: still performs the same job it used to but now the HADES fills in the gap between where the GATLING cant hit and where the MERCURY can only hit.
MERCURY: great for disabling ships and the only option for piercing damage at long range.  Not a close range option.
HADES: The arming time means that the GATLING will still rule the close range kill WHICH IT SHOULD but HADES is now your expert gunner gun of the light guns like the LUMBERJACK is for the medium guns.

Piercing options are balanced.

EXPLOSIVE:

MORTAR: Best damage. Close range
L FLAK: viable hull killer. has arming time. mid range
ARTIMUS: Dissabler. great long range, possible short range.  Can get the kill with one clip
BANSHEE:  CAN ACTUALLY GET A KILL IN ONE CLIP NOW!!!! :O.

Explosive options are now balanced.

For a pyramidion before my build options for front guns I would consider were these:
Short range brawl: GETLING/MORTAR  (hands down)
Min range: GATLING/MORTAR, GATLING/LFLAK
Long range: MERC/ARTIMUS, MERC/MERC, ARTIMUS/ARTIMUS (none of these are optimal, but the long range kill shoulb be harder than the short one)

NOW:
Short range brawl: GETLING/MORTAR, GATLING/BANSHEE,
Min range: GATLING/MORTAR, GATLING/LFLAK, GATLING/BANSHEE, GATLING/ARTIMUS HADES/MORTAR, HADES/LFLAK, HADES/BANSHEE, HADES/ARTIMUS (all pretty even)
Long range: MERC/ARTIMUS, MERC/MERC, ARTIMUS/ARTIMUS (all those combinations xHADES)

SO MANY MORE OPTIONS NOW!

Is the sniping vs brawl balance bad now? I don't know. But now its sniping vs mid range vs brawl like never before.

[-Mad Maverick-]

...but if what you're saying is that "if it doesn't set fires very well then we need to rethink things" (this is a for instance) that doesn't make sense to me.

Wait...WHAT? If Incendiary is supposed to set fires, and it doesn't set fires very well, why wouldn't we need to rethink things? It would mean the ammo type isn't actually doing what it is designed to do.

...that for some guns whose roles are so limited and range so short there may be a clear optimal ammo type and that is fine.

I strongly disagree, as the role of the gunner is predicated upon multiple ammo types being useful. I feel that any time a single ammo type is always the best choice on a gun the role of gunner suffers, and things should at least be looked at. Change isn't required, but it must be a conscious decision to allow that sort of ammo dominance.

djinn what I was saying was that the incindiary may not be the best option on the Gatling and that is fine, in fact there may be several if not most Amos that are not optimal for the gat and that is fine.  for some weapons that have very short range and a VERY specific job to do it makes sense that there may be a clear cut ammo type to go with it.

[-Mad Maverick-]

well said jace

[Sammy B. T.]

I'm loving the new gatling however it may need a few minor tweaks in either a slight jitter increase or another slight range decrease. As Smollet pointed out, 450 aint exactly face hugging. It obviously doesn't need to be a flamer, but it is currently a little to ridiculously good at component destruction with greased at this state. With buffed and greased combined with the steady flying of Mad Maverick, last night I was destroying the Hwacha on a Hwacha fish and then eating through straight to the armor. Second clip then could take out all engines. I've never been a good gatling gun user either.

The damage output seems right to me, I love the idea of high reward risk for being forced to get too close. However, if it was slightly less accurate, that would do great for decreasing greased being the only viable ammo. Awkm, if you decrease the range and/or increase jitter, I think that would be the best balance imaginable for this. The damage though is potentially balanced but most importantly it is a lot of fun!

BTW someone was asking if incendiary is viable? I believe so though generally my thought has always been it would need to be a secondary gat using it instead of the main armor shredder. The incendiary gives you 62 shots so with a ignition chance of 20% you are putting 12 stacks of fire somewhere on the enemy boat. While a dummy isn't the best thing for testing this as they have no repairs, Incendiary can one clip their armor. I can easily see two gatlings from two ships, one using greased and one using incendiary being a fantastic way to overwhelm an enemy.

Now someone was claiming the light carros aren't viable and then someone posted some nonsense about using burst to one clip. Uh, the balloon can be one clipped unbuffed with the

Greased
Incendiary
Heavy
Heatsink
Lesmok
Burst
Charged (yup)

This list could also be described as every ammo other than Lochnagar.

[-Mad Maverick-]

i say we get a few competitions in on this hot fix first before we mess with anything and see what happens

[Sprayer]

[...]
Now someone was claiming the light carros aren't viable and then someone posted some nonsense about using burst to one clip. Uh, the balloon can be one clipped unbuffed with the

Greased
Incendiary
Heavy
Heatsink
Lesmok
Burst
Charged (yup)

This list could also be described as every ammo other than Lochnagar.

Let me do the math then.
128 flechette + 144 shatter => 128*1,8+144*0,2 = 259,2 dmg/per shot on bloons.
Now the common ammo types for light carronades are heavy, greased, incendiary. Some people even use lesmok. Of those ammo types greased modifies damage, so I'll start with heavy and lesmok which only modify the clip when it comes to damage per clip. Heavy gives you 4 shots. 4*259,2=1036,8<1200; no oneclip. Lesmok gives you 4 shots too (or 3? never actually use it, don't know wether to round up or down) and deals the same maximum amount of damage, so no oneclip either.

Same goes for incendiary which has a chance to set fires additionally. Now, besides bloons being the prefered component for chemspray, that would give you in average 3 firestacks if all pellets hit the bloon. That's 12 base damage to the bloon per second and 9 damage per second for each shot, this over 1,14 seconds (time between shots) means 24 damage for the first shot which applies its damage over time three times; and 10,3 for the second which applies twice and the third which applies once before the clip is empty. That's an additional 102,9 damage. 1139,7<1200; no oneclip. Well, afterwards it'll take 1,1 seconds until the bloon burns down, so yeah, ok you get a oneclip if everything runs optimal.

Greased reduces damage by 20% and increases clipsize by 20%. Damage to bloons if all pellets hit: 207,36 per shot, 1244,16 per clip. Also it takes only 2,5 seconds to empty the clip, so yes, it's probable to oneclip an enemy bloon if all pellets hit, so hug your enemy tight.

Now burst: No damage modifier, RoF mod makes the gun empty in 4,71 seconds; damage per clip is 1555,2 as Smollet stated, this is the maximum damage per clip and this is the only ammo type where a single mallet hit during the carronade volley can not save the bloon. You'd even have 105,2 hp margin of error, which allows 6 pellets to miss.

By the way, I believe the 3,2 seconds it takes to empty either vanilla or charged clip is enough reaction time for a crewmember who knows about a carronade on the enemy ship and who is close to the bloon anyways - Junker, Pyramidion, Galleon, Squid. (I'd even say Spire and Mobula - Goldfish only if it has a captain dedicated to not loosing the bloon or an engie who cares mainly about that and the main engine)
Same goes for extinguishing once during the 3,4 seconds of emptying incendiary - except the pilot does not so often have an extinguisher with him/her.

[Sammy B. T.]

All I did was shoot target balloons in practice with each ammo type. All balloons in this game are equal I believe.

[Sprayer]

Bloons in practice have less hp. Tried shooting them with gatling, it should take 343 shots (4,18 clips) to take them down, it actually takes 286. So they only have 1000hp.
Or there was another ninja balance change to bloons or damage modifiers.

Edit: Give gat clips an additional bullet. I want to shoot a three digits clip without loading heatsink into it.

[Crafeksterty]

Lets comment a bit on previouse good balances.

Lesmok is a good contender for this.
Lesmok got nerfed to better fit a saturated ammo type. You can now use lesmok on gattling to fit the range of 600 instead of 300 like it is now (I think). You sacrifice accuracy and shots but your getting hits in before the 300 mark, and as you get closer the more shots you will start to hit.

Greased like today is actually just fine. but thats the problem. It is just normal ammo type choice. There is no big sacrafice and the quicker shots is not exactly as good because of the ammount you are given does not make it quick.

If greased gets 50% ammo, -40% projectiles speed, 70% quicker shots, -30% rotation speed, 40% less damage. Then it would be an ammo type used for playstyle rather than use of effeciency.
Something same should be implemented for the incediary rounds and charged.

If you really want to shoot quick then get greased, if you really want to set fires but not so much dmg, use incidiary. If you really want to hurt in a few shots then get charged. Etc etc. Lochnagar is a heavily saturated ammo type also.

When im on mines, i sometimes think "Man, lochnagar would be perfect about now instead of Lesmok".

If ammot types are more saturated, we would see guns have a specific ammo use as well as experimented use.  On the gattling, you can use lesmok. It will just hit less from maximum range but will hit more as you get closer. With incediary gattling, you have like a secondary flamer (Or thats how people should think).

[zlater75@hotmail.com]

I'm glad if different ammotypes are needed as that makes gunners more useful and needed. Since before it was common to see all eng ships.