1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE

[N-Sunderland]

I'm glad if different ammotypes are needed as that makes gunners more useful and needed. Since before it was common to see all eng ships.

And it still is. The patch actually didn't make too huge a difference in that respect (I really don't see any reason to take anything other than greased on the gat now).

[zlater75@hotmail.com]

Sorry.. I meant before patch and hotfix. So now the gat is more of a gungineer weapon for some instead of the mortar? One weakness i see in that is they have less time to fix balloon on a pyra if using gat instead of mortar in between reloads.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Just because one doesn't see a reason to use other ammo doesn't mean you can't. It's a choice.

[N-Sunderland]

Just because one doesn't see a reason to use other ammo doesn't mean you can't. It's a choice.

It's a choice, but not necessarily a good one. The gatling isn't going to get any significant benefit from being loaded with lesmok, heavy, incendiary...

I do think that the spread should be upped a bit to make heavy more useful, and to make greased less monstrous.

[Kain Phalanx]

As someone who hasn't played in about a year, there is one, huge, glaring issue that I can't believe hasn't been fixed/was unnecessarily changed.  That is Lesmok ammo only giving one ammo cap to the Heavy Flak.
*Jackie Chan wtf face*
I see there has been some discussion on it, but I can't fathom how it's not in a dedicated thread on the number 1 thread on the front page.  So I'm posting it here.  Fix it.  Two shots are required.  This is seriously hotfix worthy.

Atleast two shots are required for accurate fire at range.  I imagine that's why the field gun has 2 shots to begin with if not the heavy flak as well, so I'm wondering how this was forgotten.  If the pilot does ANYTHING then your first shot is thrown off.  If you only have one shot...you get to try again in five seconds when the situation has changed yet again.  A second shot atleast gives you partial effectiveness.  If we wanted all or nothing we'd use Lochnager. 

This isn't even so much about damage.  I'd rather have -50% damage dealt (because that's about what it equates to which is obscene) than only one shot.

I hear this is about nerfing the field gun; don't care.  There are other ways to do it.  Calling it a nerf, and it being so severe, also gives away the argument about "Lesmok being a no-brainer for a gun being a design flaw" because now it's a no-brainer NOT to use Lesmok on a heavy flak.  I thought you wanted to increase options?  You've only limited them more.

Get it done.

[GeoRmr]

If you're sniping at a range where lesmok is required, your pilot should be holding the ship steady, 2 shots would make rage-quit worthy 2000m kills too easy as shot timing would also be less of a concern. Most of your flak sniping should be done with charged rounds. Don't forget the projectile expansion buff where at 1000m the shell increases in size.

[Captain Smollett]

The lesmok nerf did indeed severely impact the heavy flak, which is one of the reasons the devs later gave the gun a large buff.  They increased the general shot speed slightly, increased the damage and dramatically increased the range of a normal round.

That's why most people have switched to charged rounds for the gun.

A buffed charged shot can travel 1440 meters and will one hit kill 3 out of 7 ships in the game and nearly kill a Spire (only 29 permahull left), and a squid (129 left).  It kills everything in 2 shots.

Granted this makes the gun more difficult to use, but 1400 meter kills are well within the ability of good gunners and the changes in cloud cover to the maps means that engagements rarely take place much farther than 1400 meters.

I recommend you try using it with charged rounds, and a buff hammer if you're an engineer; it's more difficult to hit with than it previously was with lesmok, but the kills are far more rewarding than they ever were once you get it down.

Hands down the most fun gun to use in goi right now.

[Kain Phalanx]

"You should be sniping with charged rounds."  No, you should be sniping with the ammo that was made for sniping, Lesmok.  Charged replaces your normal ammo for normal range as a perk for being a gunner. 
"Holding the ship steady" involves the pilot doing nothing.  You get 1 shot every 5 seconds that you have to guess the range to hold on an obscure place above the enemy, and figure out the lateral speed of your ship if you're on a Galleon, in what amounts to trial and error.  Just how long is your pilot supposed to be doing nothing while the entire crew waits and hopes on you to dial-in and make difficult shots?  Are we just not supposed to use the range increasing ammo to make shooting at range easier?  That what you're actually saying and it makes no sense. 

You also ignored where I said it wasn't about damage.  I'm not looking for "rage-quit worthy 2000m kills."  Find a better way to prevent that.  2 shots are required.  I'm flabbergasted as to how anyone could argue this.

[Kain Phalanx]

They nerfed lesmok, so they increased the projectile speed of the gun to make up for it?  That makes no sense, just un-nerf lesmok.  Who "switched" to charged rounds?  We were all already using that before.  If clouds have solved the problem of long-sight lines, then why not un-nerf lesmok?  It'll be there for those who need it and "good gunners" can have all the glory they want with sniping with charged instead.
In what world does a buff engineer man a heavy flak?  It's a gunner's gun, through and through.  I thought we were trying to fix the gunner/engineer balance.  If it's so fun, why is no one using it?  All I see are very confused Galleons with hwachas everywhere, and Goldfishes being ineffective with hwachas and having no faith in the carronade.

[Sammy B. T.]

I actually see a lot of Heavy Flaks especially in the higher competitive tiers of Guns. As Smollet pointed out no gun in the game  can achieve the quick kill that a flak can at range. Now people are throwing the word nerf around pretty liberally but they are forgetting that in addition to the clip size reduction lesmok also gained a massive speed buff. If Lesmok didn't reduce guns like the heavy flak and the merc to one shot then we would see a ridiculous imbalance towards sniping as Lesmok almost guarantees 100% accuracy with those two guns.

The lesmok ammo and the heavy flak are truly in a good place right now. Flak spires scare me, and that is so weird as a flak spire used to be my example of a worthless ship.

[Kain Phalanx]

Do you recommend using Lesmok in the heavy flak?  No one has yet and I doubt many will.  I know I don't.  Then it's a nerf.  1 shot out of 2 with the same damage is ridiculous.  Talking about the superior ballistics of the one shot you get is almost worthless.  "...Lesmok almost guarantees 100% accuracy..."  No, it doesn't, for the reasons I mentioned.  Also, that's with the current ballistics buffs it provides.  I'm perfectly fine with those being changed.  I'm fine with anything being changed, it just needs 2 shots.  30% less damage with the direct hit damage.  There, lesmok is for sniping components with mercury, and it punishes the added arm time even more on heavy flak.

Flak spires were always deadly.

[Alistair MacBain]

I quite like the current state of lesmok.
It sacrifises alot of dmg for a better hitrate.
Thats sth that makes the difference between an average and a good gunner/gungineer.
2 shots with lesmok would be op. You could probably kill an enemy quite easy on longer ranges with 2-3 hits.
Without lesmok thats quite hard. With it its rather easy.

[Kain Phalanx]

I'll keep restating this as many times as I have to.  You can reduce the damage if that's your concern.  Reducing clip size and reducing damage are not the same.  Specifically in the area you just mentioned, hitrate.  1 cold shot every 5 seconds is not as accurate as 1 cold shot and 1 adjusted shot every 5 seconds.

[Sammy B. T.]

Depends on the situation and range. If I was a gunner on the h. flak, it would probably be one of my ammos used at long ranges. A buffginner, probably not.

Question, why does a gun need to balanced around needing a cold shot. One of the signs that you are a good shot is your not shooting relative to previous shots fired but instead firing based off of your aim and range.

[Kain Phalanx]

Because not all gunners are good gunners.  Being able to calculate range from experience and checking ship movement before firing is what makes you a good gunner.  The advantage of being a good gunner is that you're a good gunner.  You shouldn't be forced to become a good gunner just to be effective.  Raising the minimum skill bar isn't beneficial in a game like this where new people are confused enough as is and many who have played for a while still have much to learn.  There is plenty of room for mastery to be worried about raising the skill minimum.