Author Topic: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE  (Read 280359 times)

Offline Subarco

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #195 on: October 31, 2013, 11:47:38 am »
good feedback guys!  hey I was wondering awkm, can you please post the usage and win % stats for each ship please?  I would really like to see the hard numbers on this.

I'm not sure how much these numbers will actually help. We'll be looking at the entire spread of skilled and unskilled players (with a skewed number of Goldfish and Pyras due to beginner games), ship popularity varies by ship based on ease of use, necessity of a skilled crew, and so forth, and even then we'd still have to account for gun choice, gun placement...and that's still not very accurate, as it's all crew dependent in the end.

It'd be interesting, certainly, but I don't think those numbers are particularly good to work with unless we see some really skewed win rates for certain ships or guns.

from what I understood the use of pyras were so skewed and dominant something "had" to be done.  I just wanted to see the numbers to prove that, and hopefully to keep us informed on decision making moving forward.   I would hate to think that these stats are not recorded and we have been making choices based on our anecdotal experiences.

I trust that Muse as professionals would know enough not to make decisions based solely on anecdotal experiences. Also, I rarely see the developers release such stats to the public.

literally every single Moba does

They may release certain stats, but not all the ones you may be looking for. In any case, I really don't think Muse would make the decision to nerf Gat/Mortar Pyramidion because a few people on the forum said it was everywhere.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #196 on: October 31, 2013, 11:49:41 am »
For what u need stats or when percentages when the pyra with a gat mortar was one of the goto builds since beta? There had to be a debuff of this weapons. If it had to be this hard is arguable but a nerf was needed for a long time.

Offline Subarco

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #197 on: October 31, 2013, 11:51:02 am »
I didn't see your edit in time. Even though Muse may listen to us more, but decisions still won;t be based off of anecdotal experiences. All those do is point them towards a particular problem where they'll invest time into investigating it and decide from there.

Offline dragonmere

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #198 on: October 31, 2013, 11:51:20 am »
I'm sorry for contributing to this problem with a single line at the bottom of a 7 paragraph post directly about gun/ship experience/balance but... what I believe to be a reasonable request for available information has been made. MUSE can respond to it or ignore it. This is not the place to argue about QA teams.


This is a gun/ship balance thread. Lets make a new thread if we really need to continue this discussion.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:53:18 am by dragonmere »

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #199 on: October 31, 2013, 11:53:10 am »
I'm sorry for contributing to this problem with a single line at the bottom of a 7 paragraph post directly about gun/ship experience/balance but...


This is a gun/ship balance thread. Lets make a new thread if we really need to continue this discussion.

hey guys good feedback! can i see the usage and win % of boats and gat/mort and other set ups please I need it to be able to give balance suggestions intelegently*
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:55:59 am by -Mad Maverick- »

Offline Imagine

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #200 on: October 31, 2013, 11:59:51 am »
I'm sorry for contributing to this problem with a single line at the bottom of a 7 paragraph post directly about gun/ship experience/balance but...


This is a gun/ship balance thread. Lets make a new thread if we really need to continue this discussion.

hey guys good feedback! can i see the usage and win % of boats and gat/mort and other set ups please I need it to be able to give balance suggestions intelegently*
They're recorded, but afaik, never released because that sort of stuff really doesn't have anything to do with us.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #201 on: October 31, 2013, 12:11:46 pm »
PM Awkm if you want those stats Maverick. We need to quit derailing this thread else it's just not going to give the proper feedback.

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #202 on: October 31, 2013, 12:33:24 pm »
We don't give out anything to % usage or wins.  Yes, we rely on our player base to give us feedback but at the same time you guys are players so its Muse's responsibility to keep your experience intact.  Numbers will ruin it.  This is why games aren't as fun as they used to be for me.  It's because I know the trade secrets.  We don't want you to play the numbers game because that's not the game we're trying to design here.  I'd like to keep that line there as much as possible.

I will tell you, however, that based on our information the usage of gat/mortar was discouragingly high.  However, this was not the only number we looked at.  It was actually one of the last.  A lot of things we needed to look at aren't easily recorded by numbers, in fact.  Because the changes to gat/mortar was a multi-pronged attack on several kinds of problems, the numbers only nailed the coffin shut in what we knew had to be changed already.  The strategy is still viable but as many have noted already it is a little more challenging to pull off.

Basically what I'm saying here is, please trust me in this effort to make the game better.  I'm honestly not trying to eff any of you over and that there was good reason for this change as many have already started to discover on their own.


Great feedback coming in.


This leads into needed revisions to Gatling, which are up on stage.  RoF has been increased for testing.  Also some reduced fire on Hades.  More details in Dev App forum board.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #203 on: October 31, 2013, 12:59:11 pm »
thanks again eric for your constant interaction and relationship you have clearly worked hard to build with us the players. 

its just hard for me to participate in conversations with everyone who is giving experiential data and basing their feedback off of said data when i dont share the same data with them.   i think if you were to share the hard numbers on simply usage % and win % of ships it would ease the frustration of players who feel like they arent being heard. 

currently i feel like i am not being listened to because i am saying, "i dont feel like i face pyra's SO often that it is worth changing."  and in response all i get is basically, "yes you are, trust me."  what is happening is through under-sharing data you are accidentally making it hard for some of us to feel valued/heard and therefore harder for us to just "trust you".   

think of the alternative:  "i dont understand why you keep nerfing the pyra! it is ALREADY underused and never wins!" with hard numbers that person could see that in general this isnt true they would then be able to join in the solution of a problem they are now convinced DOES exist as opposed to continuing to argue a point because they are not feeling heard.

but again this is YOUR game i just am feeling bummed because the game i helped kick-start (twice now! yay for adventure mode!) seems to becoming a game that i feel like i have no say in.  if the reason i havent been listened to is because im wrong id like KNOW that i am, not just reassured that i am, that's all.

thanks again man i fully realize you dont HAVE to respond to anything any of us say so the fact that you do is awesome!

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #204 on: October 31, 2013, 01:12:58 pm »
It's not just the Praymidion though.  I was entertaining the idea of bringing back some rotation speed to the Pyramidion, but those changes take a little bit longer to calculate.  Don't worry, I am trying to listen to everyone here.  I've been trying to reassure everyone that feedback is being heard and is being taken into account.

We know what's causing the spotting difficulties.  For now, if you stand well away from a gun or engine (their interaction region) you should be able to spot.  We're working on that right now.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #205 on: October 31, 2013, 01:16:27 pm »
making the pyra more nimble would help a LOT... or bringing it's ram back...(but let's be honest you don't like ramming as a weapon very much)

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #206 on: October 31, 2013, 01:22:53 pm »
I'm perfectly fine with ramming... now that approaches are trickier.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #207 on: October 31, 2013, 01:28:10 pm »
I'm perfectly fine with ramming... now that approaches are trickier.

o dude quit playing games with my heart!

Offline Thomas

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #208 on: October 31, 2013, 01:58:44 pm »
Well I do remember them collecting and revealing some of that information during the beta period. I'm certain they still collect it, but asking for it repeatedly won't help. For the most part, it's completely unnecessary in this discussion.

As for the match Dragonmere mentioned, it was a gat/mortar front combo with a lovely little flamer/carronade on the left side. A pretty standard old school brawler. And the gatling may not have singlehandedly stripped the armor, but I believe that was part of the intention of the patch. The gat was just ridiculously powerful at stripping armor and keeping it down. Now it still does a great deal of damage, but has a harder time setting up those near instant kills. You have to get a little creative and use some other damage types to help get the armor down. Explosive weapons cause ships to go down alarmingly fast, so making it a little trickier to take out the armor leads to more interesting matches, relying to better teamwork on your ship and with your allies.

(I can see about uploading the video of that match if anyone is interested)

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #209 on: October 31, 2013, 02:08:49 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug88HO2mg44

ramming was always cool... so long as it doesn't take just a single ram as it did 2 months ago.  Pyramidion was a fatty and had the mass to take most ships armor and good chunk of hull out without firing a single round.

This would have made this patch a disaster but I was also planning to nerf piercing vs. armor to make armor killing a little longer to create those more interesting approaches.  Thank goodness Dev App users strongly suggested otherwise.