Author Topic: Please Make Gunners Useful  (Read 145712 times)

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2013, 01:21:34 pm »
Quote
p.s. we already have an epic thread about this.

That we do, and it has done so many circles it might as well be a NASCAR race.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 01:26:29 pm »
I don't play this game to run around and hit stuff with hammers and wrenches and watch little bars go up.

...I want a leg to stand on when I say I won't be the third engineer on a crew, I'm gonna be the one putting holes in the enemies hulls and balloons.

First off that's just selfish play. Sure, I'm not always in the mood to be main engineer but I'm *always* in the mood to be a team player and if that means playing a few matches as main engineer I'm glad to be part of a team and contribute something pretty meaningful.

Secondly, not trying to be condescending but you're a level one captain. You're relatively new to the game. You have to realize that bringing an extra two ammo types so that you can get an extra 10% dmg, or whatever buff it has is nowhere near worth the disaster of when you're gun goes down, or catches fire and you have to stand there waiting for an engineer to put your gun out.

The extra ammo types you bring as a gunner offer a marginal increase in efficiency in "putting holes in the enemy" in relation to the significant increase in flexibility you have as a gungineer.

Honestly you just need to captain more and actually try engineering. You can't have a grasp on ship dynamics or comment on how important it is that you shoot when you haven't spent any time learning about the other roles.
I mean, if we're going to go that route, I could easily say maybe you should try flying something else than a pyra and realize that various ammo types do actually make a difference.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2013, 01:27:13 pm »
Have to agree with echo. The additional repair capabilities is in many cases better than the slightly better ammo a gunner can bring.
There are certain guns u want a gunner but not many. Lumberjack and hades ... maybe a hflak
Not many guns can really utilize a gunner ...
Mostly a engineer is way better. Deal with it or find another lobby. Easy thing.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2013, 01:41:40 pm »
Letting a captain know you are an excellent shot is more than saying you are an excellent shot in lobby. I have ran into far too many people with an over inflated sense of their own skills to trust the success of the ship to their idle boasts. If the captain doesn't know you, you are going to have to convince them that you can be trusted in a mission critical roll. It is easier to do this by being a team player and following instructions than insisting you are right from the get go. Show that you can make difficult shots as an engineer and your captain will be more open to putting you in a position where your shots matter. If they don't you can always pimp out your abilities to the other captains in the lobby.

Offline Letonator

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 02:31:53 pm »
Take a step back from everything that's going on here and get out of the circular arguments going on. Between people saying that the gunner class is indeed harder to utilize and less useful than the engineer and others saying just find a captain that doesn't mind taking a gunner, I think the point is made that we need some kind of subtle game mechanic tweaks to make the gunner class more useful in the long run.

What will it take? I honestly have no idea, people are right in that I'm a level one in everything else, I suck at flying and engineering quite literally makes me doze off, I just gun. Maybe we need subtle mathmatical differences in place that make it unreasonable to have engineers using guns, maybe reload and firing differences, maybe something that I just can't fathom in all my years of game review. I wouldn't agree with the bruteforce selection of two engineers and a gunner though, a captain should be allowed to pick his crew and instruct them. We need to make gunners viable, not required.

This has, more than anything though, been incredibly insightful on the community and how it functions. I understand there are good people and good captains who know how important a good gunner CAN be, but it seems that kind of person is going to be few and far between, and overall it makes me less interested in the game. No one should be harassed because of their class or spec choices, even if it's viewed as a little selfish that he won't switch classes just for the sake of the situation. I can understand if there's a plethora of gunners and there just isn't space for them on a crew, but when captain after captain yells at me to go engineer or leave, I just start to not give a damn and write the game and community off as moot.

Offline Cid Ferringer

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 02:36:56 pm »
I think we need more tools for the gunner, stuff that isn't ammo..

For example, giving the buff hammer to the gunner..
Although then engineers would stop having ammo and have 3 engineer tools and the buff hammer in the gunner slot, so yes that's a pretty bad example.

Maybe a gun specific buff tool, or something you use while shooting the gun.

--------------

It has too be an equipable tool/item though, since that's what Muse is going for with the classes. No passive skills or limitations.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:41:58 pm by Cid Ferringer »

Offline Imagine

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 02:49:37 pm »
I can understand if there's a plethora of gunners and there just isn't space for them on a crew, but when captain after captain yells at me to go engineer or leave, I just start to not give a damn and write the game and community off as moot.
I mean, we obviously can't force you to like the game, if you're not enjoying it well, then you shouldn't be stuck doing so, but quite obviously there's enough people who have spoken here saying they ok or like gunners on their ships here. If you're write off the entire community for being crap because a few in game don't... well...

/shrug

Seems just a little shortsighted. Dunno what I can really say to that.

Offline shadowsteel

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2013, 03:00:51 pm »
I think we need more tools for the gunner, stuff that isn't ammo..

For example, giving the buff hammer to the gunner..
Although then engineers would stop having ammo and have 3 engineer tools and the buff hammer in the gunner slot, so yes that's a pretty bad example.

Maybe a gun specific buff tool, or something you use while shooting the gun.

--------------

It has too be an equipable tool/item though, since that's what Muse is going for with the classes. No passive skills or limitations.

While you're right in how the classes model works and that any changes should be done with tools, there'e a very big drawback to doing that which makes it difficult to implement correctly.

The drawback is that any tool that will give the gunner an advantage, is going to be pretty much mandatory to bring, otherwise, the new tool is useless.

So what actually happens is that technically, the gunner gets a passive upgrade while taking away one tool slot.

Another problem is that the engineer will be able to use that tool as well thereby negating the advantage.

So while giving a the gunner a new tool sounds like the right thing to do, it's actually lot more complicated.

EDIT: And while I know Muse doesn't want to give classes passive bonuses, it might be the most straight forward way to do it.

P.S. Okay I started writing a long postscript and decided it needed it's own post.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:11:07 pm by shadowsteel »

Offline Cid Ferringer

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 03:02:38 pm »
But if most people think there is a problem with gunners, then they should get looked at..
I mean no one is doubting the usefulness of engineers or pilots..

@shadowsteel

Yeah, that's what I mean.
Engineers will grab anything that's even remotely useful..
And if it becomes a must have item, then gunners have less room for ammo. But at least the have a new tool that could be used in an interesting way..
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:04:35 pm by Cid Ferringer »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2013, 03:03:37 pm »
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but when captain after captain yells at me to go engineer or leave

Given the fact we are in a sale right now where there are a lot of new players that are also new to the community, I can say that this isn't the norm.

The unfortunate part is that if we give everyone freedom, which we should, then opinions will be formed and we have this argument. Some will tell you (and apparently yell) that gunners are worthless and they have no place on their boat. Others like myself will welcome you with open arms and know your worth on a crew.

I cannot agree to any gameplay changes to something I don't believe is broken. On one end you have those who set their ships up to be best with three engies (which some believe is every boat). The other has more varied styles that benefit highly from a gunner's use of ammo (or generally think a gunner is better, like myself). Any real advantage is all opinionated, so trying to balance opinion will just break things. This is why all we really have to say is find those captains that appreciate gunners and friend them.

Offline Letonator

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 03:05:16 pm »
I can understand if there's a plethora of gunners and there just isn't space for them on a crew, but when captain after captain yells at me to go engineer or leave, I just start to not give a damn and write the game and community off as moot.
I mean, we obviously can't force you to like the game, if you're not enjoying it well, then you shouldn't be stuck doing so, but quite obviously there's enough people who have spoken here saying they ok or like gunners on their ships here. If you're write off the entire community for being crap because a few in game don't... well...

/shrug

Seems just a little shortsighted. Dunno what I can really say to that.

Going through the harassment to try and find the decent captains in this community hasn't been worth it yet. Maybe if I find a few more and get a regular retinue going it might start to be, but overall I walk away from the game every day just feeling like a piece of crap. I have to put up with a lot of BS in my day-to-day, I play games to get away from that and have fun.

Offline Letonator

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2013, 03:07:30 pm »
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but when captain after captain yells at me to go engineer or leave

Given the fact we are in a sale right now where there are a lot of new players that are also new to the community, I can say that this isn't the norm.

The unfortunate part is that if we give everyone freedom, which we should, then opinions will be formed and we have this argument. Some will tell you (and apparently yell) that gunners are worthless and they have no place on their boat. Others like myself will welcome you with open arms and know your worth on a crew.

I cannot agree to any gameplay changes to something I don't believe is broken. On one end you have those who set their ships up to be best with three engies (which some believe is every boat). The other has more varied styles that benefit highly from a gunner's use of ammo (or generally think a gunner is better, like myself). Any real advantage is all opinionated, so trying to balance opinion will just break things. This is why all we really have to say is find those captains that appreciate gunners and friend them.

I appreciate that you feel this is just player choice happening, but let's look at the math.

Some captains appreciate a crew of three engineers.

Some captains appreciate a crew of two engineers, and one gunner.

Let's say there's a balance of both, that leaves very few slots for gunners at all in the first place, and I feel the imbalance in design speaks for itself. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I just think it's a glaring gap in game design.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 03:09:18 pm »
Can you hit an enemy ship balloon with a lumberjack at 2000m while under lateral movement?

Yes - Welcome aboard
No - I'll take another engineer

Can you place a mine with pinpoint accuracy predicting a ship's course and also adjusting for pilot evasion tool the enemy captain might employ to avoid the mine which is what I demand of every gunner I put on a mine launcher?

Yes - Go lesmok, whatever, and incendiary and welcome aboard
No - Do you have a good awareness and the ability to listen as I teach you?
       Yes - Ok come on and take...
       No - Thank you for your interest, please return to the lowbie matches from wench you spawned

Are you a powder monkey quick joining?

Yes - I'm not moving the ship till you quit and rejoin as a swabbie. Usually ends in monkey shooting rocks and buildings out of boredom.
No - Ok, take the armor piercing gun and go nuts

Moral of the stories...unless you are godlike with a weapon and are able to bend the rules of space and time to deal with GOIO lag/etc...go engineer.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 03:11:57 pm »
Thanks, Gilder, for making everyone feel so welcome.

/eyeroll

Offline Nidh

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 03:14:36 pm »
The problem isn't that gunners aren't useful, the problem is that the general population THINK that gunners aren't useful. For those of you who say they are awesome, myself included, how can we show that they are very much viable to the general population? If we can't then maybe they do need a change so this kind of harassment doesn't keep occurring.

Also, what would make 2 gunners on a ship viable? If we can solve that question then we can basically eliminate the problem since 2 gunners + 1 engineer OR 2 engineers + 1 gunner will be welcome.