Please Make Gunners Useful

[Letonator]

I love this game, few other games give me the chance to get on a flying ship and shoot the crap out of other flying ships. But I have a very serious problem.

I don't play this game to run around and hit stuff with hammers and wrenches and watch little bars go up. I want to shoot things in the most epic way possible. I consider myself pretty good at it, considering I'm skilled at calculating trajectories, movement speeds, and bullet drop well enough in engine, but in most games I'm yelled at to go Engineer even though I'm usually the only gunner on the team.

I'm not "going engineer". I'm gonna fix my guns when they break and maybe an engine if I'm standing right next to it, but my chief purpose is to man the guns. I have the ammo loadouts to make any projectile fire in the most devastating way possible, know the arcs and trajectories of prettymuch all the guns in the game, and know when I need to hop from one emplacement to the next quickly. But Engineers are just plain more useful, and can fire all the guns just fine with ammo restrictions. I'm just gonna say right now this feels pretty bullshit to me.

For the love of all that's holy, please make it so gunners are actually useful compared to engineers. I'm really sick and tired of the harassment I get for not being interested in switching my class to do something else, and I want to actually play games in the first place instead of getting yelled at by entire lobbies to go engineer or just leave. I want to shoot things, and for that I'm apparently the retarded idiot class of the game, which is wrong.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Fact of this issue is that there are very firm lines drawn for the sides that think gunners are less useful, and those like me who believe every ship is to have one. The topic of "making gunners useful" has been beat to death with no real solution, mostly because it's purely a matter of opinion.

I'm sorry you have to go through that to gun, as I'm sure you are proficient at it. It's more a community divide than an "issue" with gunners.

[Imagine]

Not needing a gunner is a fallacy perpetuated mostly by people who don't even know why they'd be taking three engineers instead, and most of the time, especially in non-tournament games, you really end up not needing it. There's a pretty easy way to deal this, of course:

1) Tell the captain that you'd prefer to stay gunner, as that's what you enjoy.
2) If they continue to yell at you, find another lobby. Most pilots will accept a gunner on their ship.


Unless, of course, you're coming in as a 2nd gunner onto ships. Then I agree with those who have been telling you to switch to engineer, but that problem is even more easily solvable: Don't get on a ship that already has a gunner on it.

[Letonator]

I wouldn't argue for two gunners one engineer, I'm not that psychotic, I just have had the problem lately that no matter what game I get into, it takes four or five tries to find a captain that doesn't mind having a gunner on their crew. It's really depressing and the harassment I receive makes me just want to quit the game. At this point, I would rather petition the company to do something than keep trying.

[The Djinn]

I want to shoot things in the most epic way possible. I consider myself pretty good at it, considering I'm skilled at calculating trajectories, movement speeds, and bullet drop well enough in engine...

Awesome. Find me and hop on my ship sometime: I can always use a proficient gunner unless I'm running a highly specific loadout tailored to have 3 engineers.

I'm gonna fix my guns when they break and maybe an engine if I'm standing right next to it, but my chief purpose is to man the guns.

Be a little careful of that. A gunner should be ready, willing, and able to run wherever he's needed in a pinch. Remember: your primary job is to shoot, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be ready to jump to the hull or the balloon in a tight spot. You're the last line of defense when things hit the fan, so if you're needed on repairs be ready to jump to them, even if it means abandoning your gun. Survival > a kill if it lets you keep fighting, as your allies could pick off that almost dead ship for you if they're around. Basically, even a gunner must learn when to fight and when to repair.

For the love of all that's holy, please make it so gunners are actually useful compared to engineers.

They are. It all depends on the loadout used: unless the captain has a very specific reason for running all engies (and if he does he should be able to explain WHY), a gunner with a pipe wrench or spanner is a great boon. There are a number of captains out there (most of them fairly skilled) who definitely understand and appreciate why a good gunner is helpful. Find us. Fly with us. Help us shoot down our enemies. 

[Zenark]

A lot of captains don't know how to best utilize a Gunner and/or have built their ship around a 3 engie crew. The gunner class really is just a novelty compared to an engie, but I prefer to have a gunner on all my ships. A lot of the time the captain will let you stay on your gun, they just want a third engie to help with emergency repairs.

I completely agree that gunners need a buff, or engineers get a gunning nerf of some sort, just so us who like to shoot stuff can focus on shooting stuff without having a captain froth at the mouth.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I completely agree that gunners need a buff, or engineers get a gunning nerf of some sort, just so us who like to shoot stuff can focus on shooting stuff without having a captain froth at the mouth.

And this is the divide I was talking about.

[Zenark]

I completely agree that gunners need a buff, or engineers get a gunning nerf of some sort, just so us who like to shoot stuff can focus on shooting stuff without having a captain froth at the mouth.

And this is the divide I was talking about.

I wonder if it'll ever be fixed. A gunner can pretty much only shoot and maybe repair a little. A pilot pretty much only flies, though balloon repairs are common. Engineers can play every role by itself, albeit not as good as the intended class, though it makes up for it since it can both gun and fly without any real downsides. A gunner should never pilot, and a pilot should only ever gun on a Spire or Mobula.

[RearAdmiralZill]

An engineer should always be fixing/buffing things unless the opportunity to shoot an auxiliary gun presents itself.

This has been beaten to death though which is why I imagine Muse hasn't done anything to change it. If three engie crews would always beat a gunner/two engie crew, then yea there is an issue. But that doesn't happen.

[GreyTea]

I think every class is suited to 1 role but that does not mean it is restricted to that role,
in lots of cases engineers look more useful because there are lots of components to fix
you have to relise that a gunner has 3 different damage outputs,
that is why when you fly on a ship with a captain that reconisies the balance needed between damage and repair
there will be a gunner because there are more versatile,

For Example
  a galleon with a hwacha you get your engineer's to take heavy for long range

 a galleon with a hwacha you  get your gunner to take heavy for long burst charged close

who is more useful now?

It is very situational  but every class is useful in its own way and to maximize your chances its always best to have at least 1 gunner

You have not choose a weaker class just more a situational one. some of the best players in the game are gunner specific and i have never heard them been called useless when they are dominating across map on a lumberjack with different ammo types,

i hope this keeps your spirits up and renews you to prove you are not useless your 1 more reason why your team is going to win

[Letonator]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions so far, we'll be covering this debate on the next Rob and Dan Show for sure, as it stands though I'll keep trying, but I feel at this point we might need game mechanics to step in and reinforce the idea that one gunner on a crew is going to make a major bonus to a solid ships crew and complement. Engineers are important and I want them to keep being important, but I don't want to be one, and I want a leg to stand on when I say I won't be the third engineer on a crew, I'm gonna be the one putting holes in the enemies hulls and balloons.

[The Djinn]

...but I feel at this point we might need game mechanics to step in and reinforce the idea that one gunner on a crew is going to make a major bonus to a solid ships crew and complement.

By what? Forcing a 2-engie, 1-gunner meta? That isn't a good solution, in the same way that League of Legends doesn't force a Support/Carry/Jungle Tank/Mid Assassin|Mage/Top Bruiser|Mage meta. Specifically enforcing crew types or team comps removes the ability to innovate, and the ability to have specific things. For example, there are some ships that I *do* want 3 engineers on, and having game mechanics step in means I can't do that.

Really you just have to find captains who want gunners. As this thread indicates, we *do* exist.

Engineers are important and I want them to keep being important, but I don't want to be one, and I want a leg to stand on when I say I won't be the third engineer on a crew, I'm gonna be the one putting holes in the enemies hulls and balloons.

Perhaps carry the pipe wrench, and mention to your captain that you're perfectly willing to assist with repairs when necessary. The pipe wrench is a great middle ground, and gives the gunner/pilot some serious repairing power. You're no engineer and you can't extinguish fires, but you're damn helpful in a pinch.

That being said: What would your suggested alterations be? I'm always curious. 

[Echoez]

I stand by the fact that this is a team work game and you should accomodate what works best for the guy that runs the ship for you, else you should pilot a ship yourself and get your crew to be whatever you want them to be.

If your captain wants 3 engineers, go engineer and don't argue too much about it. If you don't want to, then change lobby and find a captain that has a use for a gunner.

I mean, sorry, I don't want to sound blunt, but that's how it is, Gunners CAN be used and they have their advantages, there is no problem with the class mechanically, but some people just have specific strategies in mind hence why Engineers can be more useful to them.

Thankfully I always run ships with Heavy guns so at least one gunner is always an asset to me so I realy don't see this problem much. Few and far between are the times I will have to make a gunner go engineer, but honestly in public games I don't care much so I leave one gunner on my ship most of the time anyway.


PS: As expected lot's of Merry Men on a "Gunner is useless" argument

PS2: Just poking fun btw, this argument is so old x3

[treseritops]

I don't play this game to run around and hit stuff with hammers and wrenches and watch little bars go up.

...I want a leg to stand on when I say I won't be the third engineer on a crew, I'm gonna be the one putting holes in the enemies hulls and balloons.

First off that's just selfish play. Sure, I'm not always in the mood to be main engineer but I'm *always* in the mood to be a team player and if that means playing a few matches as main engineer I'm glad to be part of a team and contribute something pretty meaningful.

Secondly, not trying to be condescending but you're a level one captain. You're relatively new to the game. You have to realize that bringing an extra two ammo types so that you can get an extra 10% dmg, or whatever buff it has is nowhere near worth the disaster of when you're gun goes down, or catches fire and you have to stand there waiting for an engineer to put your gun out.

The extra ammo types you bring as a gunner offer a marginal increase in efficiency in "putting holes in the enemy" in relation to the significant increase in flexibility you have as a gungineer.

Honestly you just need to captain more and actually try engineering. You can't have a grasp on ship dynamics or comment on how important it is that you shoot when you haven't spent any time learning about the other roles.

[Omniraptor]

There is less debate about medium guns- those ships (galleon, goldfish, spire) pretty much always have a gunner, because you need projectile speed mods (incendiary/heatsink) to get around arming time restrictions at close range on the heavy flack and lumberjack, while heavy shotguns benefit a lot from switching between lochnagar/incendiary/heavy/charged, in order of usefulness. Hwachas also require a heavy clip at anything but point-blank range, though an engineer can easily just load vanilla rounds at close range with little loss, so they don't lose out as much by not having a gunner. A hwachafish is still fully viable with 3 engineers, but a blenderfish is hurt by not having a gunner.

That being said, most popular ships (ones with no medium guns) really don't need a gunner that much, because enough damage/range versatility is provided simply by being engineer and taking either a close-range (greased or incendiary) or a long-ranged (heavy or lesmok) tool, and then switching to vanilla ammo when the tool becomes less useful. Exceptions include rare weapons such as the artemis which only really benefits from burst, the banshee only really benefits from greased, etc.

Engineers simply bring more to the table, between buffing components (including weapons, giving the benefits of charged rounds), extinguishing, and repairing. In a close-range light-gun ship that's guaranteed to be taking lots of damage, a gunner simply can't keep up with repairs and their fancy ammo types are useless if the rest of the ship is broken.

p.s. we already have an epic thread about this. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php?topic=410