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Please Make Gunners Useful

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Thomas:
*Four different teams. In the finals of a tournament. Time doesn't make a huge difference, as the game hasn't had any drastic changes (obviously we have new ships and maps, but the mechanics still work the same).


Here's some "Flotsam Dynasty"
http://www.twitch.tv/gunsoficarus/b/450831705

4/7 of the teams didn't bring a single gunner.

Here's some more Cogs (S2, week 2)
http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam/b/433399131

4.5/7 teams didn't use a gunner. (One team had 1 gunner on ship, and 0 on the other)


I'm trying to find more recent tournaments, but it's not easy. You'll notice that these matches have some galleons without gunners as well.

Essentially the idea is that when high ranking teams (lots and lots of experience and practice) choose not to bring a gunner to some of the most important and difficult matches, you have to question how useful a gunner really is compared to an engineer in that last slot. You might argue back that "Hey, some of those ships do use gunners!", but if gunners can easily be replaced by engineers with almost no difference in performance at high competitive levels, and engineers -cannot- be replaced, what does that say about the gunner's overall usefulness?


Of course gunners still have their place and are great on certain builds and playstyles, but for the most part they're just as good as having a third engineer, and sometimes less so.

RearAdmiralZill:

--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on October 10, 2013, 11:26:32 am ---Fact of this issue is that there are very firm lines drawn for the sides that think gunners are less useful, and those like me who believe every ship is to have one. The topic of "making gunners useful" has been beat to death with no real solution, mostly because it's purely a matter of opinion.

It's more a community divide than an "issue" with gunners.

--- End quote ---

Imagine:
I still think that it's mostly an illusion of gunners not being useful. I haven't really seen any tangible proof that 3 engineers > 2+1gunner.

I mean, do you really believe that if the Ducks were to suddenly start bringing a gunner on each ship every match they would suddenly not be in the upper level of competitive play consistently? I highly doubt it.

3 gunners being far superior than 2+1 is anecdotal at best, and straight up false at worst. Now, the more interesting conversation would be should a ship be able to function as well as it does with 3 rather than 2+1.

Serenum:

--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on October 25, 2013, 03:45:05 pm ---
--- Quote ---It's not really a matter of opinion, though.
--- End quote ---

I give you this thread, and any other "gunner is useless, please buff" thread as proof. I do not agree with your, nor any other person's opinion to buff x or change y mechanic to somehow make a gunner "better."

I build my ships to use a gunner. I train my gunners to use various ammo types, even on light weapons. This is my opinion.


--- End quote ---

You are not adressing my point though.
That being that everyone can fire a gun, but only an engineer can really do his job. You would be right if things like putting out fires and buffing components were available to everyone all the time and the engineer just could do it better by bringing the appropriate tool, but the game doesn't work like that.
If I want to put out a fire on a ship I NEED a fire extinguisher, if I want to shoot an enemy ship I DON'T need special ammo and expecially I DON'T need more then one kind, most of the times. While in every fight you can be assured that you are going to need a tool for rebuilding, one for repairing and something to put out fires because otherwise you are boned if you lack even one of these tools.
That is the problem.

What I'm saying is that there is no incentive in bringing a gunner along, it's just something you might want to do SOMETIMES, but most of the times there is no real reason if you are going for optimization.
As for threads like this popping up it doesn't mean that the issue isn't clear or that the situation is fine as it is. In fact it shows the opposite. If an issue is not dealt with then threads about it will keep on coming.
I'm not saying that gunners are useless, but I am saying that it's objectively the least useful class because of how the game is designed.

The flaw in the idea that to make a class viable you just need to give it more tools for their role is evident in the fact that on some ships even a PILOT is not all that useful. On a Galleon you're better off using ANOTHER engineer, arguably the same is true for the Spire.
Meanwhile no one EVER is going to say "no" to another engineer on board.

RearAdmiralZill:
I dont address your "point" because i feel there is nothing to be addressed. I will always say no to 3-4 engies because it's diminished returns. Until 3-4 engie crews are always winning over a 1-1-2 crew, its simply a different style of play that exists, and nothing more.

An engie doing a gunner/pilot's job will always be less efficient. The only time it gets remotely close is a gunner/buff engie on a light gun, and that's still up in the air as to which is honestly better.

It is your opinion, not fact, that engies are the end-all-be-all of goio crews.

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