Carronades 1.3.2

[Captain Smollett]

35% is correct.

DPM does matter when talking about armor damage specifically since unless you're firing at a squid or goldfish, or focusing fire with an ally; properly engineered armor almost always takes more than one clip to break.

But if you insist on arguing over the invalidity of this data point, carronades do more burst damage to armor than chaingun since they release their clips much faster than a gattling can.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Which is why the idea of spreading out the damage across 4 shots is here (Heavy carronade). Also realize I expect a RoF increase if that is put into testing.

@Shadow : I thought spill damage was axed in a patch long gone? It was to combat mercs killing power, among other things.

[Captain Smollett]

I think he used the wrong term.  He's not talking about spill damage but rather the fact that a balloon turns into a hull hitbox once it gets popped. 

Oh, and just to put in my 2 cents I'd rather not see the carronade go to a 4 shot gun.  There's so few low clip guns let that can utilize charged and lochnagar effectively these days not to mention that I think it'd effect the fun factor of the gun for me.  I'm really happy the heavy flak stayed at 2 shot clips since it just feels so awesome to have so much power per shot in a heavy weapon.  I wouldn't want that to have to change in the heavy carronade either.

[shadowsteel]

Which is why the idea of spreading out the damage across 4 shots is here (Heavy carronade). Also realize I expect a RoF increase if that is put into testing.

@Shadow : I thought spill damage was axed in a patch long gone? It was to combat mercs killing power, among other things.

I think he used the wrong term.  He's not talking about spill damage but rather the fact that a balloon turns into a hull hitbox once it gets popped. 

Oh, and just to put in my 2 cents I'd rather not see the carronade go to a 4 shot gun.  There's so few low clip guns let that can utilize charged and lochnagar effectively these days not to mention that I think it'd effect the fun factor of the gun for me.  I'm really happy the heavy flak stayed at 2 shot clips since it just feels so awesome to have so much power per shot in a heavy weapon.  I wouldn't want that to have to change in the heavy carronade either.

Yes. What Smollett said. I guess I got the terms confused. Just so I get this right, spill damage is when, for example, 100 damage destroys armor with 50 health and then spills the remaining 50 to hull right? If so, what do you call my version of it? When damage hits destroyed components and gets transferred to hull?

And to keep this post somewhat on topic, I agree with Smollett about clip size. Besides Loch though, I feel it would be too similar and frankly worse than the Light Carronade.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Just so I get this right, spill damage is when, for example, 100 damage destroys armor with 50 health and then spills the remaining 50 to hull right? If so, what do you call my version of it? When damage hits destroyed components and gets transferred to hull?

That's the right term, but it just doesn't happen anymore. My understanding is that Muse patched that out of the game. So, if I take out your balloon at 50 health with 100 damage, none of the extra is transferred. If I hit that destroyed balloon with a fresh shot, it all goes to hull using the proper modifier.

I do agree that going to 4 shots would then kill loch's use. I only suggested it because of the way a carronade shoots, which is raycast, not a projectile like flak. This whole debate is much more to me a "make the gun itself harder to shoot effectively" vs "is it currently balanced."

The range needs to go down regardless. Back to production is fine, and I could stand for even 50m under it.

[Captain Smollett]

Actually Zill, as I understand, hull spill over was removed for everything except double explosive weapons (like flak, mortar, carousel etc).  But it only works if the direct explosive damage is sufficient to  break the hull; if so the explosive aoe should spill over.

[Echoez]

That's the right term, but it just doesn't happen anymore. My understanding is that Muse patched that out of the game. So, if I take out your balloon at 50 health with 100 damage, none of the extra is transferred. If I hit that destroyed balloon with a fresh shot, it all goes to hull using the proper modifier.

I do agree that going to 4 shots would then kill loch's use. I only suggested it because of the way a carronade shoots, which is raycast, not a projectile like flak. This whole debate is much more to me a "make the gun itself harder to shoot effectively" vs "is it currently balanced."

The range needs to go down regardless. Back to production is fine, and I could stand for even 50m under it.

The fact that not many people realize and makes them think damage spilling is still in the game is that they forget that the Carronades actually fire more than one shot per shot.. well, they fire multiple pellets, each one with its own damage value, so if a Carronade destroys your balloon with a shot, then yes, the remaining pellets will go straight to your armor, even if all pellets hit the balloon before it got destroyed, the game will calculate how many pellets are needed to take down the balloon and then will apply the rest of them to the hull with hull modifiers.

Range should be brought back down to production and nothing less, don't even go there, both guns are already trumped in range by anything that isn't a Flamethrower, I'd hate to see this game's shotguns be turned into its own version of cotton candy shooters with magically disappearing shots, it will look even more ridiculous when they are being fired from a giant cannon.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Actually Zill, as I understand, hull spill over was removed for everything except double explosive weapons (like flak, mortar, carousel etc).  But it only works if the direct explosive damage is sufficient to  break the hull; if so the explosive aoe should spill over.

Maybe, and probably only able to be 100% confirmed by a dev at this point.

Back to carronades though.

Range should be brought back down to production and nothing less, don't even go there, both guns are already trumped in range by anything that isn't a Flamethrower, I'd hate to see this game's shotguns be turned into its own version of cotton candy shooters with magically disappearing shots, it will look even more ridiculous when they are being fired from a giant cannon.

No body stays at the max range of a carronade. Even at production it was just a spot where you could finally start hitting them, but you immediately got well within that to keep the pressure on and give your target less maneuvering options. Lowering its range by 50m just gives people that much more of a second to disable/evade/ect is not going to kill it.

[Echoez]

No body stays at the max range of a carronade. Even at production it was just a spot where you could finally start hitting them, but you immediately got well within that to keep the pressure on and give your target less maneuvering options. Lowering its range by 50m just gives people that much more of a second to disable/evade/ect is not going to kill it.

That first hit is still important though and don't forget that from the current stage of the gun, which is pretty balanced, not sure why people are whining about it all over the place, that would be an 100 meter range nerf. I understand that the vast majority of players are only used to seeing their armor go down and not the balloon, but that is no reason to nerf a weapon that was fine any further than it used to be, it's already been nerfed in a way, no need to take away more range than it used to have and if you do take it away then you will have to take it away from the light carronade as well else the two guns won't have much of a difference in range and that's bad on its own, especially since they fill the exact same role.

[Zenark]

Decrease Flechette damage, carronade and LJ equally nerfed, both still the best at balloon popping.

Honestly, though my original post states I felt the Carronade is OP, I think differently now. While I think it does need looking at, it's hardly the 'OMG SO OP' I felt before. My change of opinion comes with the many valid points brought up here, and that another Carronade works as a good counter. They'll be falling too if they're balloon is popped as well.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I need to add a disclaimer that any heavy carro changes will also be somehow applied to the light carro for balance purposes.

Having used the blender, I don't see the nerf. The added shatter, range, and spread make up for the reload. I mean, not going to say it got a buff either.

450m was production right? So going to 400m would at least be worth a test. Maybe 450m was just the ultimate sweet spot and we should do that. Id not want it shorter than 400m.

[Echoez]

Having used the Blender extensively in 1.2 as well as all the latest patches I can safely safe that the cycling rate of the gun feels MUCH slower than before and it is. I simply can't compare 5.5 seconds of reload to the old glory that was the 4 seconds, so to me it is a massive difference while the damage it got in return was simply not worth it compared to that reload time, so it is a nerf. the range buff on both the carronades was a bit excessive though I will have to agree, it should be taken back to 1.3.1 values.

The extra shatter damage doesn't matter anyway, it already had enough of it to destroy heavy guns instantly and the Shatter damage modifiers on anything else than components is so low, that the buff was minimal.

If you ask me I would prefer both carronades to be brought back to how they were in 1.3.1 with no changes, any change that was made in 1.3.2 somehow seems to have broken both of these guns. (according to what most people are complaining about)

More range that wasn't needed, more shatter damage that wasn't needed and actually only buffs the gun on something it should be bad at and that's Permahull damage (cause all damage modifiers are low on that anyway, so any kind of extra damage makes a difference) and a longer reload that makes the gun feel sluggier than it was before.

Bad, bad and more bad.

the only good thing was the reduced spread which should have been there in the first place.

[Wundsalz]

Having used the Blender extensively in 1.2 as well as all the latest patches I can safely safe that the cycling rate of the gun feels MUCH slower than before and it is. I simply can't compare 5.5 seconds of reload to the old glory that was the 4 seconds, so to me it is a massive difference while the damage it got in return was simply not worth it compared to that reload time, so it is a nerf. the range buff on both the carronades was a bit excessive though I will have to agree, it should be taken back to 1.3.1 values.

The extra shatter damage doesn't matter anyway, it already had enough of it to destroy heavy guns instantly and the Shatter damage modifiers on anything else than components is so low, that the buff was minimal.

If you ask me I would prefer both carronades to be brought back to how they were in 1.3.1 with no changes, any change that was made in 1.3.2 somehow seems to have broken both of these guns. (according to what most people are complaining about)

More range that wasn't needed, more shatter damage that wasn't needed and actually only buffs the gun on something it should be bad at and that's Permahull damage (cause all damage modifiers are low on that anyway, so any kind of extra damage makes a difference) and a longer reload that makes the gun feel sluggier than it was before.

Bad, bad and more bad.

the only good thing was the reduced spread which should have been there in the first place.

- extra shatter damage matters when it comes to hull stripping power and disabling components with ammo other than heavy clips while stripping the hull at the same time.
- additional 50m max distance matter, as they allow you to deal damage earlier (1.2 seconds earlier if a blenderfish engages a static target at max speed). It also allows the pilot to easier keep out of distance of very close range weapons like flame throwers, mine launchers and light carronades.
- the reduced cone angle for the projectiles makes a major difference as it makes the usage of other ammo types than heavy clips viable way earlier than prior to the patch. Here's the hit circle diameter plotted as a function of distance:

red: 1.3.1 diameter, blue: 1.3.2 diameter, orange: difference between those two

in my opinion all those minor buffs of the carronade overcompensate the reload time nerf of the gun.

[Echoez]

As I said, none of those changes were needed.


Edit: By the way, it was not worth it for various reasons, including the fact that now everyone is complaining about a gun that was alright before, this is extremely annoying to me since I kept insisting that it should NOT be changed at all in 1.3.2, this is a very frightening fact considering what has happened to other guns due to massive complaints because of simple changes that guns didn't realy need.

The carronade was fine in 1.2, just bring it back to how it was and leave it alone, please?

[Mr. Ace Rimmer]

The carronade was fine in 1.2, just bring it back to how it was and leave it alone, please?

^This^

It worked fine in 1.2, and was still incredibly powerful in the right hands (both the light and heavy versions). There was no real need to buff either guns. In some cases you managed to turn viable builds from high risk high reward to point, shoot and laugh at your enemy.