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Engagement length

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Queso:

--- Quote from: Squash on June 15, 2013, 04:20:33 am ---Sorry Queso, gatt+flak isn't going anywhere until there's more piercing options.

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I'm not saying gat flak IS the issue, but it certainly is a symptom. To able to win a fight consistently these days, the best option has been to kill them as quickly as possible. Gat flak just happens to be the best at doing this. The issue, in my opinion, is that getting the quickest kill is almost always the best way to win. Disabling simply takes too long and opens you up to attack. Hit and run strategy results in the attack taking more damage than the target. The quick kill may be boring, but as long as it's the best strategy, people will constantly use it, reducing game depth, and making it less fun for everyone.

Rainer Zu Fall:

--- Quote from: Queso on June 15, 2013, 10:13:18 am ---I'm not saying gat flak IS the issue, but it certainly is a symptom. To able to win a fight consistently these days, the best option has been to kill them as quickly as possible. Gat flak just happens to be the best at doing this. The issue, in my opinion, is that getting the quickest kill is almost always the best way to win. Disabling simply takes too long and opens you up to attack. Hit and run strategy results in the attack taking more damage than the target. The quick kill may be boring, but as long as it's the best strategy, people will constantly use it, reducing game depth, and making it less fun for everyone.

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No. You don't have to use gat/flak these to win. You can win with so much more. And it's really fun too, because you need to think and really need to use everything you have.
But that's what makes it so interesting. A Lumberjack Galleon can be devastating if there's just 2 gat/flak Pyras coming.

Gat/flak isnt always the quick kill. It's just the easiest. And since most people use the same ship and tactics it's mostly effective since they need to be in the same range.
Why not use tactics? Your environment? Different ranges? There's so much more, people!



--- Quote from: EchoLG on June 15, 2013, 08:51:14 am ---Double Carronade Pyra, Double Merc Pyra, Carronade/Mortar Pyra, Carronade/Banshee Junker, All Banshee Squid, Merc/Flak Pyra, Double Merc side Junker with a CArronade/Banshee other side.
There's lots of stuff that can be used, people are just bored to learn how to use them effectively.

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Totally agreed, same as I said before!


--- Quote from: EchoLG on June 15, 2013, 08:51:14 am ---Though I do agree the gatling is a boring weapon for a gunner cause if they are realy good, it's a waste of their talent, I know that I got bored of it after 5 tries and always take the Flak or Mortar ( can't aim it though :P ) on any Gat/Explosive combo ship now if I'm gungineering.

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That's why I like my gunner on the flak: You can vary the different ammo types. Heavy is always the best for beginners, agreed. But charged, burst, incendiary (even tried lochnagar once) are so much better in a gat/flak pyra fight. You don't just have to simply put the crosshair on the enemy and press the fire-button.

Echoez:
Also, you have to not confine your tactics to just a singe ship's loadout, that's a bad thing.

For example, I just had a match where I took a Squid with a Carronade front and 2 Banshees, was spotting targets for my Galleon ally to take them down from afar all while doing a little disabling myself, popping balloons, taring them all while they couldn't point their guns at me and our Galleon ally was raining death on them. There's many manu combinations in this game, some are just more risky than the Gat/Flak, hence, Metagame is born.

It's not the best, it's just the most 'effective' in a sense that it works and it's easy to carry out.

PS: It was my second time flying a Squid.

Queso:
What I'm trying to say is that anything that takes down ships that fast isn't fun. Gat flak just being the easiest example. Balance is secondary to fun (but a necessity in long term game health and fun), and being shot down that fast by anything isn't fun. I never want to be able to shoot something down without it being able to fight back. That's incredibly boring. I don't want to get shot down like that either. It's not impossible to win against people with these super high DPS ships, it's not even that hard, but it just isn't all that fun. It doesn't matter if it's balanced and the metagame shifts away for a time, because it will come back and it won't be fun again.

There's a good example I have from my days in tf2. There was a weapon called Natascha. It was a minigun for the heavy. Every time you got hit it slowed you down for a brief period of time. Originally it stacked with itself, causing the slowdown to be inconsistent as some bullets hit and some missed. Now this was terribly unfun as you had no idea how fast you would be moving at any given point. However, from a gameplay standpoint it was perfectly balanced. Now they could have left it as it was and been done, but people were having a bad time. So valve changed it so it would apply a constant amount of slowdown whenever you were getting hit by any amount of bullets from it. Still balanced, but a lot more fun for everyone. If I was complaining about the balance I would be on any other number of the forum threads here.

naufrago:
Erm, just out of curiosity, has the topic of slightly lowering the gat's damage come up (1-2 pierce damage per shot less)? Would that ruin its ability to take down armor? I realize 1-2 pierce damage is actually a significant portion of its dps, which is why I'm curious.

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