Achievement system flaw

[Serenum]

Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.

Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.

[Surette]

Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.

Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.

But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.

(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)

[Parkourwalrus]

Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.

Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.

No offense, but GOI is not a game where stats, at least those like k/d or such matter. If you really think your stats are that important, then you could just be a lumberfish. They are probably the easiest to pilot with if you're good, as most  stuff relies on your gunner, so if you can get a good gunner on your ship, and you are not terrible, than you should be able to get that achievement.

[Serenum]

Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.

Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game however you want. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.

But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.

(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)

Uhm... Yes it does? If I want to complete an achievement I am obviously forced to do so in the way the achievement is set up. I can't complete an achievement for the Goldfish using the Galleon, thus if I want that achievement I am forced to play as the Goldfish.
Making assumptions like "if you care about achievement you shouldn't care for unnatural gameplay" is just a logical fallacy, in this game achievements=leveling and while I normally don't care about achievements I do care about leveling. In most games leveling is tied to experience and just playing the game however you want, thus I can ignore achievement to pursue the objective of leveling up, in this game I cannot do that.

As for stats and k/d ratio not counting that is also a subjective opinion, the game provides me with comprehensive stats for my character, thus I care for said stats, be it k/d ratio, level and all that good stuff.
If the game didn't want me to care then such stats would be hidden and/or there wouldn't be a leveling system at all.

If something is a feature in the game then it's logical to care about it.

Also, I don't like the Goldfish, not even a Lumberfish, I do just fine with Squid and Galleon, thanks. I can pilot other ships, which I would argue are easier to pilot then the Squid and the Galleon (at least if you want to win), I just don't want to because I don't like them.

[JaegerDelta]

Right, so this topic is still going on.

Think of it this way. The levels in Guns of Icarus represent renown and not experience (you can also view interpersonal relationships of the players as a secondary renown system, basically like known with in the airship world but not really in the world at large). you complete achievements (i.e. great actions) and thus your renown in the Guns of Icarus universe increases and you receive more and more prestigious titles from the various places and people in the world.

now i know the achievement tree system is the main direction this debate has gone to. but im still confused by it.  in an RPG people dont get pissed when you cant put your points in whatever you want right away, skill trees are basically standard. 

Since this game is purely co-op pvp. the skill of the player in different roles is representative of that skill tree. Say an engineer gets better at floating gunning and repair. that would correlate to the multi-classing tree within the engineer tree. and they will end up getting more multi-classing achievements. and eventually a higher renown in the world as and engineer.

Achievements are supposed to be challenges. its supposed to be a great accomplishment in universe. If you are going to be the kind of person who sets out to build their renown in the world. be ready for a challenge. otherwise, if you are setting out to be just great at what you do. you will eventually get the achievements, and thus world renown (i.e. level) will be slower to rise. but your secondary renown (i.e. renown among airship crews) will grow quickly.

tl:dr Achievements are pvp equivalent of skill trees in this game. level represents completion of great deeds. Achievements are supposed to be challenges.  be challenged. you are a character in the world.

[Plasmarobo]

Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.

Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game however you want. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.

But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.

(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)

Uhm... Yes it does? If I want to complete an achievement I am obviously forced to do so in the way the achievement is set up. I can't complete an achievement for the Goldfish using the Galleon, thus if I want that achievement I am forced to play as the Goldfish.
Making assumptions like "if you care about achievement you shouldn't care for unnatural gameplay" is just a logical fallacy, in this game achievements=leveling and while I normally don't care about achievements I do care about leveling. In most games leveling is tied to experience and just playing the game however you want, thus I can ignore achievement to pursue the objective of leveling up, in this game I cannot do that.

As for stats and k/d ratio not counting that is also a subjective opinion, the game provides me with comprehensive stats for my character, thus I care for said stats, be it k/d ratio, level and all that good stuff.
If the game didn't want me to care then such stats would be hidden and/or there wouldn't be a leveling system at all.

If something is a feature in the game then it's logical to care about it.

Also, I don't like the Goldfish, not even a Lumberfish, I do just fine with Squid and Galleon, thanks. I can pilot other ships, which I would argue are easier to pilot then the Squid and the Galleon (at least if you want to win), I just don't want to because I don't like them.

Back when I played Pokemon I did not give a damn about the "beauty pageants". I do not think it was logical to care about those. Feature != Something you should care about. Feature = Will make someone somewhere interested. Besides, it's a video game. It's not logcial to care about it at all, strictly speaking. Generally, logic and emotion don't mix. Be careful throwing around the word logic. You've got your opinion, but logic is a harsh mistress who will quickly remove the substructure from your argument.

It's your right to care about levels. Or at least, it's not something someone can take away from you, but GoI doesn't have mechanic advancement like CoD. It's a different mentality. CoD and those games are actually worse! I can't get this special awesome gun until I play for 50 hours? What is that!?
Even RPGs and other games box you in MUCH more than GoI!
What? My mage can't learn meteor until level 27? Well damn it.

In Guns:
Wait, I don't get better repair tools until...oh.
Wait, I can't use the Goldfish until...oh.
Wait, I can't equip a Lumberjack until...oh.

Also I want to point out that the stats are independent of level.
At least, the k/d's get you nothing.

Stats are for people who are interested in that sort of thing. You could play the whole game without ever opening the progress tab. Some folks just like data.
It you care about looking like a high-level guy, then yeah, the game makes you do silly things to get there.
Hey man, you are the one who decided to care about levels. You get everything right off the bat. It's true that some ships are easier to fly, but I suggest to learn and become skilled with all of them! There is a lot of strategy that goes into a good GoI game, and each ship has it's part.

Welcome to Guns of Icarus: where the achievements are made up and the levels don't matter.

[Surette]

Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.

[Serenum]

Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.

What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.

And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.

So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.

[Imagine]

Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.

What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.

And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.

So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that the achievement system is set up perfectly, but there are a few things to consider:

1) Levels affect nothing. Yeah, sure, you get costumes but in no way is that game breaking or inhibiting. I don't agree with your statement of "That alone is reason enough", not even sure why you think that.
2) Levels give a general sense of game experience, but to say that it has something to do with skill is rather false. Considering many of the achievements currently require you to do in game stuff which is actually not a great way to do a job, if you're completing them you're probably hurting your team considering what's going on.
3) While an overhaul of the achievement and level system would be nifty, it's also not broken right now. I'd rather have the glaring problems in the game fixed first before we go onto something that really doesn't affect the game at all.

[HamsterIV]

You can also view interpersonal relationships of the players as a secondary renown system, basically like known with in the airship world but not really in the world at large.

I choose to view my interpersonal relationships as the primary renown system. There is no mechanical advantage to being high level player. There is a slight social advantage to having a high level, since random people will more likely join the ship of a high level player to avoid getting stuck with a crappy captain. However as most high level players can attest there is also a social disadvantage since it is harder to start a game when the other team doesn't fill up due to perceived level imbalance.

I choose to peruse interpersonal relationships because it is far more gratifying to see "You are a good guy, mind if I add you to my friend's list?" in lobby chat than "*Bing* achievement unlocked!" in the top left corner. If you play the game long enough you will blunder through most of the < level 6 achievements anyway. Most of us assume any one over a level 4 knows what they are doing.

[Surette]

What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.

And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.

So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.

Basically what Imagine said.

Do I think the achievement system is perfect? No, most systems aren't. But I'm certainly not actively bothered by it and I actually think it works fairly well. I'd much rather have Muse focus on other game issues than working on an entire rework of the achievement system. And sorry, but "level matters because it unlocks cosmetic items" is just silly. They don't affect any actual game mechanics. I understand thinking that levels represent some measure of skill, but that's really not the case, and that's what I love about the existing system. I love that level 1s have access to everything that level 13s do, and I love that a team of level 2s who communicate well can take down a team of level 10s who don't work well together.

So in short, I wouldn't be opposed to any and all changes to the achievement system, but overall I'm happy with it and I think Muse's efforts would be best spent in other areas of the game.

[Plasmarobo]

Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.

What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.

And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.

So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.

I do care about the levels.

[realtalk]
I sort of think of it like meta-breakout.

You've got a set of cells, right? Some are locked at low levels, but you still have a bunch. Then on each cell is a linear progression. Each cell represents a 'theme'. Once you do more of the basic stuff, you unlock more challenging or game-broadening themes. Sometimes these take less time to unlock, but they challenge the way I think about the game, and challenge which things I consider good and bad.

I've realized through this system that nothing in this game is really 'good' or 'bad'. It really comes down to 'I know how to use this effectively' or 'I am unsure how to employ this'. Instead of being a test of how well I grind (so many games out there do grinding, go play one of them if you want to grind levels) it is a test of how willing I am to learn. That is what makes this whole game awesome.

You've got to learn. You've got to work well with others.

The locked progression gives character and accessibility to the system.
I think my little theory goes something like this:
If you play with people around your level, they should have roughly the same achievements. You can swap tips if you have different ones. Not sure if that's why the dev's do it, but it's a little side-effect.

Later on, the system does open up. But the linear progression still provides rate-limiting. I feel that maybe they could be ranked by difficulty or something, but I like that the system has charater. Too many games cop out and give up, telling the players to do what they want.

Guns has a unique system. I'd hate to see it watered down. Even flaws become happy little quirks if you deal with them enough. I've worked pretty hard on some of the achievements, and I'm proud of my modest level. But I honestly believe that doing them helped me to be a better pilot.
[/realtalk]

So my reasons are pretty personal.
I like difficult, clunky things that people rally around. I also play Dwarf Fortress. Go figure.

[Serenum]

I also play Dwarf Fortress.

Next time please put the relevant bit at the start of your post, this explains everything!

[Audie Murphy]

My stance on this is a bit unforgiving:

Your level is a measure of your experience. I want to be able to see your level and have a bit of a general idea of what to expect from you, so that I can make decisions accordingly. I want to be able to safely assume that a lvl 9 gunner knows how to aim a lumberjack, and that a lvl 6 engineer knows where the balloon on my ship is.

If it were me, I would make the achievement system even LESS forgiving to people who don't branch out.

If some people are unhappy that they have to fly ships or man guns that they don't like in order to get achievements: I'm sorry but tough shit. Because I don't want to find out mid-game that my gunner didn't bring the right ammo types for my gun because he got all the way to lvl 8 without ever touching it because "he didn't like it."

This game is about teamwork, and part of being a team player is having the flexibility to perform the role that the team needs. I don't think that people who refuse fly certain ships, or refuse to use certain guns, because they don't like them should be as high a rank.

[Lovex Lazil]

First of all I don't know why you're so concerned with the achievements.

They're designed so people who want to aim for them and claim cosmetic rewards or just a higher title in game.

I also enjoy the fact that they "FORCE" me as you would say to do things I usually wouldn't ever use or do; Granted that it may put myself and my team at a disadvantage when I have to rebuild X parts in y seconds of destruction as a gunner but it's long term goal is to "train" and "educate" players in what high level or even competitive play can be like and that's why I"m confused in why you're angry about this?

If you're top the type to learn or try new things then simply don't do the achievements? Nobody is forcing you to do them although the level progression is tied in together with the achievements it's basically a quick buffer for most players. Example being If I see a level 11 Pilot I can be dam sure he knows what he is doing and won't have any problems, just like having a level 7+ gunner I can be sure he knows what ammo to bring with him for each gun to be useful as well as knowing how to shoot each gun.

That's how I view the achievements in this game compared to other games; the view being that it's an extended tutorial in a sense that it makes you use combinations of ammo/tools/guns and tactics you normally wouldn't.