Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Shinycharizard on May 14, 2013, 01:28:21 am
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Firstly, this whole system for achievements and leveling is ok, especially considering the rewards are only cosmetic. I do have one major problem. The challenges have to be done in a specific order. This pidgenholes me into doing things I dont want to do/arent good at in order to advance in level. basically what the game tells me is that i cant do any of the other pilot experience challenges cause im no good with the goldfish.
I dont want to feel like i have to be forced to do specific things in a specific order, it goes against the idea of setting up your ship or loadout the way you want. Make it so we can do the challenges in any order. if you were intending to have them progress higher and higher in difficulty, having a chain of challenges with similar but increasing requirements works. but when they involve different tools, weapons, ships, ect., it makes sense to let us do them in the order we want.
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The achievement system's purpose is to make sure you try different things. You don't like the Goldfish? You should try flying it more, it's a really fun ship. Without the achievement system, you might never bother. It helps you try out different guns, ammo types, tools, etc. That's really important in a game like this.
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You say Potato ... I say Tomato.
You say Flaw ... I say Feature. ;)
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(I had originally posted this under suggestions and feedback but it was locked since this thread was already here.)
Maybe this has been addressed once before already but I really must say, the idea of having to go through achievements in order to rank up is very annoying to me. I never liked the idea of having to go out of your way just to accomplish some silly milestone, but this ranking system literally forces you into it. I am sure Muse had their reasons for this but there has to be a way to make this idea more bearable. How about instead of having to complete the achievements in a certain order, players are able to complete them in whatever order they happen to do it?
Here is an example of why this system annoys me. For the pilot role the very first experience achievement you must accomplish is "Fighting Fish." This means that you are pretty much forced to fight with the goldfish for at least 10 battles before you can even move on to the ship you really want to use. Two achievements later you are then forced to fight with the squid. What is the point of being free to pick and choose which ships to use if we are pretty much told what ships we have to use if we want to advance in roles? It is not just ships we are told when to use, but tools and weaponry too when it comes to some of the other achievements. I get it that Muse is wanting to encourage the players to try out everything, but why not let us decide when and where we use the stuff available to us? Please open up some of the achievement trees so that we can accomplish them in an order that comes naturally to our play styles and not in a way that makes us go out of our way from the get go.
If there is some reason for the way things are now please let me know of it? I would be greatly appreciative to know there is a rhyme and reason for this set up. Thank you. ^_^
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The achievement system's purpose is to make sure you try different things. You don't like the Goldfish? You should try flying it more, it's a really fun ship. Without the achievement system, you might never bother. It helps you try out different guns, ammo types, tools, etc. That's really important in a game like this.
I am sorry, but saying the Goldfish is really fun is very subjective. Why is it players have to be encouraged to try out everything? Isn't more important that we have fun and are able to play in the way that gives us the most enjoyment ie. with the ship we prefer? Besides, aren't the players forced to play with other ship designs already when they play as a crew member? Why not make it so that they are forced to play these ships once they are already in higher ranks and not from the get go when they are just starting?
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Here is another idea. If you can not or will not make it so that the achievements can be done in any order, can you at least make it so that it does not take forever to go through each one? My favorite ship is the Spire, but it is going to take a very, very long time before I can get any credit for being good with it since I first have to win 10 times each with the Goldfish, Squid, Junker, and Galleon. That is a minimum of 40 battles! Not to mention all the other achievements which require me to use particular weapons like the flamethrower. I really do not want to have to wait that long before I can play my preferred ship the way I want to without feeling I am wasting opportunities to slowly raise my pilot rank.
I will reword this once again. The best way to fix this really is to just open up the achievement trees. Trust me, as long as the achievements are there people will go out of their way eventually to complete them. Especially if they have to in order to reach the highest ranks.
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Beyond being forced to use ships and equipment in a particular order. The achievement system also makes you play the same map a few times in a row thanks to the map achievements. All players must first play Dunes and then Scraps, and then Water Hazard, etc. etc. Doing these maps out of this order gets you nothing. It does not matter if you played scraps 100 times, you still have to win there 8 more times later if you had not yet won 6 matches in Dunes. This makes a player feel like they have to get the maps out of the way and grind play them in order if rank matters at all to them, otherwise you get the feeling of achieving nothing...
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Don't want to fly a Goldfish? Don't want to use ANY pilot tools? Don't want to be forced to use ANY weapon you don't want. Don't want to get off the helm and repair things on the ship?
Congrats, you have 28 achievements still available to you. That's enough to make you a level 6 Aeronaught plus change. Coincidently that's my level. 140 hours of playing (Granted I have engineering and gunning achievements but I never farmed these, also I'm a serial idler).
AND AND AND this is only if you're a giant stickler who never wants to use a Goldfish, Pheonix Claw, Kerosene, Hydrogen, ever hit anything with a mallet EVER, use a Carronade, or use a Galleon. Do any of these and you can usually add another 5 to 10 achievements.
As Sunderland said. The gradient is there to encourage diversity and better play. Kind of like an expanded self taught tutorial. And after 140 hours of playing the game if you're still interested then theres a good chance you'll want to start experimenting.
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Don't want to fly a Goldfish? Don't want to use ANY pilot tools? Don't want to be forced to use ANY weapon you don't want. Don't want to get off the helm and repair things on the ship?
Congrats, you have 28 achievements still available to you. That's enough to make you a level 6 Aeronaught plus change. Coincidently that's my level. 140 hours of playing (Granted I have engineering and gunning achievements but I never farmed these, also I'm a serial idler).
AND AND AND this is only if you're a giant stickler who never wants to use a Goldfish, Pheonix Claw, Kerosene, Hydrogen, ever hit anything with a mallet EVER, use a Carronade, or use a Galleon. Do any of these and you can usually add another 5 to 10 achievements.
As Sunderland said. The gradient is there to encourage diversity and better play. Kind of like an expanded self taught tutorial. And after 140 hours of playing the game if you're still interested then theres a good chance you'll want to start experimenting.
As I said before. Can't we be made to experiment later rather than now? Maybe when I am 140 hours in I might be ready to try other ships but right now I am a few hours in and I would really rather play the ship and lay out I prefer and I am comfortable with. I am a "newbie" after all, why should I be forced to use a ship I may suck at? Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise, or make you play in a map or game mode you might not have wanted to? I would not mind having to do it all eventually, but why decide for me that I must do them first while I am just getting into the game? From what I see the only achievement trees that do not in some way force how you would play the game are the career ones. All the others contain requirements that force you to change how you would otherwise play and you will have to grind and go out of your way to get them done first if you want to keep making progress.
(edit) For example, I like to use the spyglass, tar barrel, and kerosene with the pipe wrench to fix things. But nope, very early on I will be required to use the mallet instead and be "encouraged" to try out the phoenix claw and hydrogen canister even though they are pretty much unhelpful for a Spire captain...get where I am getting at?
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I would like to point out that nothing is gained from leveling, well nothing beyond some cosmetic items. So the idea of being "forced" is a bit contrived. If your intent on having fun in your Spire then have fun in your Spire. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. Chances are you will fly other ships. You said it yourself that in the future you will most likely be ready to try new ships. When you ready to do that then that’s the time to try some of those achievements.
Something else to note is that achievements are just that, achievements/challenges. Challenges for you complete at your leisure, not a stringent requirement of gameplay.
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I wanted to reiterate what I am trying to say one more time. I have no problem being encouraged to do all these different things that take me out of my comfort zone eventually. That is great, they are challenges and being challenged is what I want in a game. What I do not like is that if I ever want to gain any rank I have to face these challenges in a certain order that heavily dictates how I should play and that playing in any other challenging way before the system says I am ready is technically a waste of effort.
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Some of them are oddly specific. Maps 1 for pilot requires you to ram (Ehh, ok) 20 components (A fair bit, but doable) on Dunes (?Que?) for an entry level achievement in that line. The requirements are so specific its kinda creepy.
I understand that leveling all at once would defeat the purpose of the achievements a bit, but if I might put forth a suggestion: Activated Achievement Progress. Or something spiffy sounding. Basicly, you get to choose which achievements your shenanigans will count towards. Sod the goldfish, want to pop baloons on the spire? You can hit that first! Just getting off a CP binge? Roll up a DM based achieve.
The offset to this is already in place; many of the achievements become more difficult to pull off/simply take more time than earlier achievements. If youre a sucker for punishment or you think the current achieve doesnt suit you, just switch it out, itll make the game a bit more interesting while suggesting new shenanigans to try.
And it will still make you fly the damn goldfish if you want to hit pilot lv11
Seriously, ramming 20 parts on dune makes me want to stab eyeballs.
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I would like to point out that nothing is gained from leveling, well nothing beyond some cosmetic items. So the idea of being "forced" is a bit contrived. If your intent on having fun in your Spire then have fun in your Spire. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. Chances are you will fly other ships. You said it yourself that in the future you will most likely be ready to try new ships. When you ready to do that then that’s the time to try some of those achievements.
Something else to note is that achievements are just that, achievements/challenges. Challenges for you complete at your leisure, not a stringent requirement of gameplay.
Contrived? "having an unnatural or false appearance or quality."
No I am not making stuff up or just pulling things out of thin air here. I really feel forced to go through these achievements in order because rank matters a bit to me and I hate the idea of playing matches without making any progress that mirrors my experience and ability. I do not know about you, but I am much more likely to trust a player to play out her/his role if he is a high rank and will often choose a person of a higher rank to team with then a person with a lower rank. That is the entire purpose of ranks after all, right? To know who is the more veteran players? How is being concerned about how rank is earned a "contrived" concern?
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Some of them are oddly specific. Maps 1 for pilot requires you to ram (Ehh, ok) 20 components (A fair bit, but doable) on Dunes (?Que?) for an entry level achievement in that line. The requirements are so specific its kinda creepy.
I understand that leveling all at once would defeat the purpose of the achievements a bit, but if I might put forth a suggestion: Activated Achievement Progress. Or something spiffy sounding. Basicly, you get to choose which achievements your shenanigans will count towards. Sod the goldfish, want to pop baloons on the spire? You can hit that first! Just getting off a CP binge? Roll up a DM based achieve.
The offset to this is already in place; many of the achievements become more difficult to pull off/simply take more time than earlier achievements. If youre a sucker for punishment or you think the current achieve doesnt suit you, just switch it out, itll make the game a bit more interesting while suggesting new shenanigans to try.
And it will still make you fly the damn goldfish if you want to hit pilot lv11
Seriously, ramming 20 parts on dune makes me want to stab eyeballs.
Thank you! It is achievements like that one that also encourages a bunch of people to purposely throw away a game just so she/he can meet an achievement requirements. Making people have to ram people in dunes a bunch of times before he can move on to other things will just make a captain do nothing but ram in dunes until he finally meets that requirement, which is pretty unfair for the rest of his crew stuck for the ride.
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Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise,
EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
That was the entire point of my post. You can get to level 6 without having to use anything specific ever.
EVER.
Conservatively, and very averagely, based off my gameplay that's 50 hours or so of piloting and nothing else.
No one's forcing you to do anything. Others have already covered this. But it still doesn't matter cause you could fly a Spire with the same loadout every single game without ever using a pilot tool, engy tool, or ammo, and still reach my level.
Why even care about 1 locked Spire achievement when you have 28 achievements that you get just by playing the game. Hell most of them you'll get accidentally.
Make sense this time?
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Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise,
EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
That was the entire point of my post. You can get to level 6 without having to use anything specific ever.
EVER.
Conservatively, and very averagely, based off my gameplay that's 50 hours or so of piloting and nothing else.
No one's forcing you to do anything. Others have already covered this. But it still doesn't matter cause you could fly a Spire with the same loadout every single game without ever using a pilot tool, engy tool, or ammo, and still reach my level.
Why even care about 1 locked Spire achievement when you have 28 achievements that you get just by playing the game. Hell most of them you'll get accidentally.
Make sense this time?
Right, well lets make what you said even clearer. 10 of those 28 achievements (the career ones) require you to play a minimum of 319 games to finish them all. I would have to play that many games plus complete the other 18 achievements just to get to level 6 for one of the roles. Let me also point out that 10 of that remaining 18 (the victory ones) require you to win 318 games to complete them all.
So rewording it another way..just to get to level 6 in one role in the way you are suggesting I would have to play a minimum of 319 games, lose only once and also complete 8 other achievements. I do not know about you, but after all that I would hope to be a bit more than a level 6 by then. This is why I feel I have no choice but to go out of my way to finish the other achievements, doing things otherwise would take ludicrously long for very little pay off and my rank would never match my experience and ability..
Of course if I was able to do the achievements in any order. Then most matches I play should contribute in some way towards my ranking progression and not just by my number of games and victories.
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Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise,
EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
That was the entire point of my post. You can get to level 6 without having to use anything specific ever.
EVER.
Conservatively, and very averagely, based off my gameplay that's 50 hours or so of piloting and nothing else.
No one's forcing you to do anything. Others have already covered this. But it still doesn't matter cause you could fly a Spire with the same loadout every single game without ever using a pilot tool, engy tool, or ammo, and still reach my level.
Why even care about 1 locked Spire achievement when you have 28 achievements that you get just by playing the game. Hell most of them you'll get accidentally.
Make sense this time?
wow... let's take a step back for a bit.... These are all valid arguments, and the achievement system could definitely be looked at... Personally, I don't mind the current system, as I've been through it, and it's fun to work with the challenges... let's please keep things civil :)
*Edit* this could just be me reading anger in a passionate discussion... If so, I apologize
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I see what youre saying, Linen. Class levels are just numbers in this game; they say "Look at me! a) I've played so long! b) I've tried new things! c) I'm an achievement hoe!" You can choose to do them if you feel like it. The thing is, the point Haven brought up was that other people sometimes suck.
Earlier today, an engineer really wanted to level up his chemspray and buff hammer, while being main engineer so he could buff more, where as I wanted him to use the repair loadout, or be a gungineer. I brushed it off, but with the achievement choosing ability, he would have learned something new (the achievement choosig ability), pick up credit for an achievement that would have made him more effective.
Mind you I didn't care that much; I let him use his loadout and just laughed as we got curbstomped, but I'm just crazy like that.
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Sorry Shrinkurex, I will tone it down a bit. I just get passionate when I am in a debate.
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It only seems angry cause I had to say the same thing twice. Not really passionate, just trying to be clear.
The example I gave was obviously extreme. Yes it's going to take a long time to level that way. My point (again to reiterate... sigh...) was that even a completely inflexible person who purposely avoids achievements is going to eventually reach level 6. This wasn't including restricting maps and game types because that's just getting ridiculous.
To Gato, yes. Achievements make people useless sometimes. Post patch balloon buffing anyone? However I was solely addressing SilentHaven's point that achievements forced you to play stuff you didn't want to in order to rank up. At a certain point, yes they do. But by then you'll be so far into the game you'll probably have gotten bored of your Hwatcha/Gatling Spire and started to at least try different pilot tools.
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Here is something to think about. If people are saying that rank does not matter, maybe that is because rank is not accurately displaying a person's experience and skill in their role? After all, we had just established that a person could have 318 victories under their belt and only be rank 6 in a single role. Yet I am sure a person can be much better ranked with only half as many games if she/he went out of her/his way to laboriously grind through the achievement in order. Maybe fixing the achievement system will give the ranks true meaning again?
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At least one of the new (misc) achievement paths isn't order-dependant. So it shouldn't be a problem to convert some of class paths to be like that... if that's what they want anyway.
If people could basically do the easier/more convenient things without first doing the harder/more troublesome ones first, that'd mean people would get achievements quicker overall. This would mean people go up in levels quicker, and then perhaps get stuck because they're left with the annoying ones. This doesn't really seem like an improvement to me. At least now you can tell by someone's level that they've put some time into it, which is more likely to correlate to an improvement in skill than if they had just rushed through the achievements they could...
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It only seems angry cause I had to say the same thing twice. Not really passionate, just trying to be clear.
The example I gave was obviously extreme. Yes it's going to take a long time to level that way. My point (again to reiterate... sigh...) was that even a completely inflexible person who purposely avoids achievements is going to eventually reach level 6. This wasn't including restricting maps and game types because that's just getting ridiculous.
To Gato, yes. Achievements make people useless sometimes. Post patch balloon buffing anyone? However I was solely addressing SilentHaven's point that achievements forced you to play stuff you didn't want to in order to rank up. At a certain point, yes they do. But by then you'll be so far into the game you'll probably have gotten bored of your Hwatcha/Gatling Spire and started to at least try different pilot tools.
Then you missed the entire point of the thread. Some of us are saying that the achievements require us to be too flexible. Making us go out of our way to achieve very particular missions in a very particular order to the point we often can not play how we want if we hope to make any progress in rank. All we want is for us to be able to achieve them out of order so that we are more likely to make headway in some of them as we play naturally, not be forced to make changes to our normal game play to try to meet them as they come available.
Sure, I can play my spire how I want anytime. But each time I do it will not help me much in gaining rank. As I said in many ways already, I would only make any real progress in gaining rank by stopping my preferred method of play and directly making an effort to complete the challenges currently open and available, any other, less focused, effort would yield only miniscule results by comparison.
All this means that ranks represents who spent more time grinding achievements rather than who had played the game more and is more of a veteran. To me, this is an issue.
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At least one of the new (misc) achievement paths isn't order-dependant. So it shouldn't be a problem to convert some of class paths to be like that... if that's what they want anyway.
If people could basically do the easier/more convenient things without first doing the harder/more troublesome ones first, that'd mean people would get achievements quicker overall. This would mean people go up in levels quicker, and then perhaps get stuck because they're left with the annoying ones. This doesn't really seem like an improvement to me. At least now you can tell by someone's level that they've put some time into it, which is more likely to correlate to an improvement in skill than if they had just rushed through the achievements they could...
Sorry, I can not say I agree with you there. All the "time into it" you mentioned was just a person's effort of grinding the achievements. It does not really reflect well how that person can play the game normally. We'd be much better off with a ranking system that does not require a person to grind achievements to really get anywhere.
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Here is semi obvious idea. Why not let achievements just be achievements (like in other games) and have the cosmetic awards be the only thing given for doing them? Is it too late to have ranks be awarded in some other fashion? One that better depicts how experienced or skilled a person is rather than how willing they are to grind achievements?
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I had a much longer post typed up, but you guys beat me to it. So no reason to stomp over the same points. One thing from it I would like to add.
Contrived? "having an unnatural or false appearance or quality."
This was in regards to it being a "requirement", not that your issue with the system was artificial. I could use a different word such as hyperbole, dramatic, etc. But I thought "contrived" would be a better use as it isn't as nasty as some other words. I apologize if you took a personal offense to it.
Now onto where you guys are in the conversation.
Why not let achievements just be achievements (like in other games) and have the cosmetic awards be the only thing given for doing them? Is it too late to have ranks be awarded in some other fashion? One that better depicts how experienced or skilled a person is rather than how willing they are to grind achievements?
I whole heartily agree and this was kind of the point I was getting at. The achievement system is fine, the ranks and how people use and view them are the issue. They have no weight to them. A new ranking system that would take in matches played, win/loses, time played on a class, etc to give a similar aggregate rank would be far more accurate. Designing and implementing a system like this would most likely be more time than it’s worth. Especially in the grand scheme of things at the moment with Adventure mode and maintaining Skirmish mode. However nothing is saying it’s out of the question until we hear from a Dev.
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I also agree that the current system needs to be reviewed. I'm among the newer players coming in with th Kickstarter crowd and once I figured out how the leveling system worked I was a little put off. Frankly, the achievments and leveling system aren't going to keep me from having my fun. I'm still going to utilize my free time in the most efficient way to maximize the entertainment value which in this case means disregarding the achievment system and not gaining levels. I have a lot of fun piloting Galleons and Junkers. I've tried the Goldfish, meh not for me. I'm not going to stop having fun just to progress down that achievement branch. But that means I'll gain levels at a snails pace. Now if the system could be changed where I could still gain levels to reflect my ability as a player (like many other games) and not how I spent my time pursuing tedious achievements that would increase the entertainment value for me.
So in conclusion I echo the others on this issue. A seperation of Achievements and Levels might be in order to make the game more fun for the average player.
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oh my.
Achievements and levels. Well, In a purely multiplayer game, with no gameplay unlocks, achievements and levels are merely little dopamine triggers designed to keep you playing. I get that leveling up is important to alot of people playing, but really that number and title dont mean anything at all. Really "leveling up" in this game is community based. no matter what the number is next to your name, if you are a good, friendly, and helpful player the "top teir" players in the game start to want you playing in their games. (as great as the community is in this game, there is definitely a split between the "in crowd" and the masses, its fading away as more people play the game but its still there and is a fact of playing guns as of right now.) That is how you really "level up" in this game, when the players recognize and respect your abilities in your preferred role(s).
As for actually doing the achievements, I am of the opinion that they are actually too easy, when you stumble across achievements they lose all meaning. they are not really part of the game, they are an extra. and maybe its just because i have played alot of rather brutal games, but i dont see the problem in working in the system set up. If making a number go up is important to you, then great complete the bonus missions available the best you can (despite my upper end levels, i have alot of achievements that i just havent worked on because it be fun for my crew or be helpful to do at the time, though i have been guilty of just saying fuck it and cheeve whoring #buffcheeves)
Making a number go up does not equal fun, that is just psychology keeping you hooked on a product. the fun in the game is the game.
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The achievement system's purpose is to make sure you try different things. You don't like the Goldfish? You should try flying it more, it's a really fun ship. Without the achievement system, you might never bother. It helps you try out different guns, ammo types, tools, etc. That's really important in a game like this.
I'm sure having a fire extinguisher as a Gunner is fun for the whole crew. Need to try something different, right?
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Just to point out something to the people who said this system is there to encourage people to broaden people's game play. I had 34 kills and 10 deaths using the spire. But now that I am using the goldfish because I am pretty much obligated to do so in order to get an achievement out of the way..I now have 34 deaths. People have said this was meant to have us explore new ships and new tactics..but so far all this has done is frustrate the heck out of me! I want to rank up and I want to get this achievement out of the way, but I have yet to kill a single ship using it. I just want to play with the ship I want without feeling that I will never reach higher ranks just because I can not manage to win with one ship. Or because I will never be able to destroy 20 components by ramming in one map >_> I mean really. Why are going through these headaches the trails we must do through to gain rank?
Please, I really want to hear from a dev on why they make people complete frustrating achievements to make progress in ranks. It is not fun to do and that completely defeats the point of playing a game.
(EDIT): I just wanted to also add that I feel sorry for the people who have to crew with me while I toil away at getting achievements. It can not be very fun for them either..but what choice do I have if I want progress?
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Please, I really want to hear from a dev on why they make people complete frustrating achievements to make progress in ranks. It is not fun to do and that completely defeats the point of playing a game.
(EDIT): I just wanted to also add that I feel sorry for the people who have to crew with me while I toil away at getting achievements. It can not be very fun for them either..but what choice do I have if I want progress?
Erm, you can't rank up, therefore there is no point to playing the game? Yet you really enjoy playing the Spire ... ... ... then play the Spire, as obviously winning is whats important to you, not learning how to win in the various ships that are available. If you cannot learn to use the weapons available and the different attributes on the Goldfish then why should your rank which measures your capabilities across ALL ships go up?
If anything you should be petitioning for ranks to be "ship specific", for those people who only want to use certain vessels. But then you'd simply hit the objection that the game isn't made for the minority of people who have ship preferences, it's made to be played with other people and Role Ranks serve as a way to judge capability across all ships ... no crew wants to find out their rank 10, can only pilot, gun or repair a limited number of ships.
When that arguement failed, you could then try arguing you cannot complete the Goldfish achievements because the ship is bad, or the achievements are too hard. But then you'd hit the objection that this could not be, because many other people have clearly managed it.
Instead you've gone with the argument that the Achievement system is flawed because it stopped someone who couldn't achieve from ranking up. Really...? Because to me that sounds like it's doing a stellar job of accurately maintaining a valid record of a Crewmens overall capability.
I can understand that it would be awesome to have a system that tracked Time spent, or Wins and incremented a statistic to reward people for their dedication or success. But you're trying to suggest that a system which tracks your capability as a Gunner, Pilot and Engineer should not be based on proving that you have certain capabilities to fufill those generic roles - totally defeating the point of role ranks, for the sole purpose of not frustrating you.
I'm sorry, but life is hard, and being good at things is difficult. Don't expect to be rewarded because you can't or don't want to do something.
How bout making a positive suggestion ... like a title system that rewards infamy? Or ship skins based on kills with a given vessel? Or simply describe how the "ROLE RANK" system can be improved without having to make it appease people who just arn't good enough in their roles without relying on a certain ship or a certain setup.
(EDIT:) If you'd had spent the time you had on this thread to instead ask for help and gather a capable crew who could've imparted their experience onto you, you'd probably already have the ranks you're grinding for. You ask what choice you have if you want to progress ... the blunt and simple answer is, "improve".
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Glad I found this topic before making one of my own! ;)
I personally like the way the leveling system works in this game but some friends of mine dislike it a good bit, so I'm definitely interested in how everyone else feels.
I like that it isn't a linear task of just playing game after game and that you need to do a bit more to gain levels, it makes leveling more interesting and also it gives achievements purpose (I never really found much interest in achievements before). Its good that they encourage people to do different things, the main negative that I see is on the extreme end of that though. People desperately trying to get achievements so they can level can cause some confusion for people playing with them and throw everyone off. A primary example of this was when I played with a gunner that was running around not accomplishing much when our ship was getting much, after the game I learned this was because he had a fire extinguisher for his tool so he could get a multi classing achievement.
Its alright if I know to work around things like that, and most of the other achievements are for the most part ok, but things like that can be a bit painful to deal with when the person trying to get achievements doesn't even say anything about it.
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SilentHaven why do you want to level up?
Is it for the respect of your crew?
Because if you are a good captain they will respect you after one game regardless of your level.
Is it the awe of others?
Because if you pull amazing maneuvers and carry games you will have that as well.
Is it to be seen as an authority on subject matter?
Well with this one having a high level actually helps. But in the ongoing meta and tactical discussions we have I haven't seen any one "pull rank." Some times we deffer to another player but that is because we have played with them and have seen first hand how much better at this game they are.
Is it to climb the ladder and earn your spot among the top players?
Because GOI doesn't work like that, there is no ELO match making system and our competitive scene doesn't care what level you are.
Is it because you are the type of person who wants to play a game to completion?
Then you should also be the type of person who likes obscure challenges and doing stupid things for the sake of achievements.
This may sound like hypocrisy coming from a lev 8 pilot, but high levels don't matter. Some of us have contemplated starting new accounts so we can have the thrill of scoring multiple achievements in the same match, or bribing muse to artificially lower our levels so new people won't be as scared of us. Enjoy your time as a level 1. It doesn't last very long and as stated earlier you will probably get to level 4 or 5 by accident.
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All I ever associate with a level is a ton of time spent grinding. It's not my thing so I don't do it, but it gives you challenges if you get a bit bored in your average match.
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Yes, I knew I would get one of you types who will just simply say. "Welp, you suck, get better."( I mean namely you Knoxi) You did not even look at the entire conversation as a whole, just read my last post with one point and did not even bother to read everything before making a condescending comment. (Did it make you feel good? XD) My whole point you did not bother reading earlier is that the achievement system is only reflecting people who go out of their way to grind, and that is it. Yes I suck at the goldfish apparently and I should improve on that..but why should I have to improve on that right now at the very start before I am allowed to get to the other achievements that I might be much better at and more capable of doing? This is not a reflection of my abilities as a whole at all but my abilities at one single ship. Not being able to do one achievement should not stop me from attempting others to show that I can be a good pilot, gunner, or engineer. This is why I would like to see the achievements opened up to be done in any order so I can go do the achievements I am capable of and be able to do them naturally as I play naturally..without having to go out of my way to try to accomplish them just so I can get to others I want to try. Next time, please try reading a bit more, okay Knoxi? This was never just about me and what I want either, I am not even the one who started this thread XD and I know others must feel the same way.
As for why I even want the ranks. Well there are several reasons. For one I am a completionist, I want to get everything I can in a game, but I would prefer to tackle things naturally first and then once I have a lot of experience at the game then go challenge myself, not be forced to do something I do not want to do from the very start when I am supposed to have options available to me. Second, I like having a good rank to show that people can trust me. This is even more important to me since I love being captain and do not have a mic. A higher rank to some people will give me some measure of their trust if they never played with me before. Also I will have less arguments about who should be captain or not if I had the rank to back up that I can be competent.
Look, some people are acting like I am being entitled or selfish about this. But in the very beginning all I was doing was putting input into what I saw was a mistake that could be easily fixed. I doubt anything might ever really be done about it but I still wanted to at least say something and make what I feel are some good points. Maybe by doing this I can help avoid this problem in the adventure mode which I am looking forward to. I am just making a debate here, so please, stop being condescending about this just because you do not agree with me. Thank you.
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Glad I found this topic before making one of my own! ;)
I personally like the way the leveling system works in this game but some friends of mine dislike it a good bit, so I'm definitely interested in how everyone else feels.
I like that it isn't a linear task of just playing game after game and that you need to do a bit more to gain levels, it makes leveling more interesting and also it gives achievements purpose (I never really found much interest in achievements before). Its good that they encourage people to do different things, the main negative that I see is on the extreme end of that though. People desperately trying to get achievements so they can level can cause some confusion for people playing with them and throw everyone off. A primary example of this was when I played with a gunner that was running around not accomplishing much when our ship was getting much, after the game I learned this was because he had a fire extinguisher for his tool so he could get a multi classing achievement.
Its alright if I know to work around things like that, and most of the other achievements are for the most part ok, but things like that can be a bit painful to deal with when the person trying to get achievements doesn't even say anything about it.
I do not mind having to do achievements to rank either. I just want them to be opened up to be done in any order, that way I do not have to feel like I have to do them right away so that my games can have any rank progression. Sure I can play the game with whatever lay out I want..but the longer I wait to do what is being required of me the longer I will have to wait to rank up, which makes all the effort and good game play I do otherwise seem like such a waste..
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This is even more important to me since I love being captain and do not have a mic. A higher rank to some people will give me some measure of their trust if they never played with me before.
Well there is your problem, mute captains are never as trusted as talking ones. I would rather fly with a level 1 talking captain than a level 6 mute, and I am sure that sentiment is echoed my many other players here. It is less of an issue with mute crew since they aren't expected to issue commands. You do both yourself and your crew a disservice by taking the captain's slot without a mic. Even if you have the typing speed of court stenographer voice communication is always preferable.
I can't really comment on the completionist aspect of gaming since it has never been a major draw for me. If you ask nicely in the server lobby for help getting a certain achievement I find many people are willing to help. Even if it is just saying "I really suck on the goldfish but I need 3 more wins for an achievement."
I do not mind having to do achievements to rank either. I just want them to be opened up to be done in any order, that way I do not have to feel like I have to do them right away so that my games can have any rank progression. Sure I can play the game with whatever lay out I want..but the longer I wait to do what is being required of me the longer I will have to wait to rank up, which makes all the effort and good game play I do otherwise seem like such a waste..
You might want to check your future achievements, I think I remember Muse saying you can earn points towards future achievements before you get to that achievement.
EDIT: My bad, my memory must be failing me.
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I haven't jumped in before now because I'm interested in getting a variety of different perspectives on this, but I should say something before we all retread the same ground over and over too many times.
The leveling system is definitely unusual in that it's a hybrid of achievement and mission systems, and for the most part I'm satisfied with how it's working. It's meant to encourage experimentation HOPEFULLY without requiring any behavior that's outright detrimental, and while it's meant to take a while to progress through, you shouldn't have to go too far out of your way to do it, and you shouldn't have to grind. In other words, it should nudge you toward varied but not unnatural play. The system itself is not likely to change.
What I do want to hear about though are the points of frustration where a particular achievement is a roadblock to progress, or encourages unnatural or detrimental play. Sometimes this is due to a bug (ramming, anyone? Sorry...), sometimes it's due to balance changes and the evolution of meta, sometimes it's just down to a bad guess, and I've certainly made plenty of missteps before. I'm always collecting feedback and have made frequent adjustments to the achievement objectives, and I'm working on another pass right now in preparation for new levels. (Also sorry about the gunner extinguishing...again, down to a bad prediction about balance. I can't remember when I looked at that one, but if it's not removed already it'll be gone in the next update.)
So please, tell me about the achievements like that one that you feel are unfair or broken, and I'll take a look and do my best to address them.
Thanks!
EDIT:
You might want to check your future achievements, I think I remember Muse saying you can earn points towards future achievements before you get to that achievement.
Nope, this is incorrect. All of the progression achievements are gated and you can only progress on the currently unlocked one.
Some future non-progression achievement tracks will be un-gated, though, so you can complete them in any order. The only one that currently works like this is the Tutorial track.
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Awesome, thanks for replying to this and commenting on that extinguisher achievement. Muse has definitely made it into my list of favorite developers right with Bungie, Riot, and Supergiant. Keep up the good work :)
As far as other achievements, I know there are a few on my list right now I'll probably end up having to go out of my way to get but they aren't really harmful to my experience in any way (put out fires 100 times with fire extinguishers, 8 wins +40 repairs on scrap, 60 hull repairs on squid, etc). Only other one that isn't in there is a spotting achievement that I just realized requires me to be level 5 to get. :P
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Here is something to think about. If people are saying that rank does not matter, maybe that is because rank is not accurately displaying a person's experience and skill in their role?
It doesn't display your experience and skill. I view it like a certification. It doesn't necessarily indicate any level of skill, it just shows that you have met the basic criteria to pass.
In short, your level doesn't show your skill at all, and I think a lot of us like it that way.
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I would like to echo Hamster's point concerning the mic. My original use of the friend list was to identify players who played as pilot and talked (I initially only engineered). I wasn't doing this on skill level in fact, I played with many terrible captains simply because at least they were telling me orders. Even if I knew the captain was fantastic, the inability to communicate in a game that is 85% teamwork is generally a deal breaker.
In my gameplay, I hardly paid attention to the achievements until level six. You can definitely get quite a few levels without having to actively plan out your achievements.
If I may complain about one achievement though. Lochnagar kills in general seem a little mean. The round is only almost viable on a handful of guns and even the extra damage given by the round is less than two of the vanilla rounds.
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Here is something to think about. If people are saying that rank does not matter, maybe that is because rank is not accurately displaying a person's experience and skill in their role?
It doesn't display your experience and skill. I view it like a certification. It doesn't necessarily indicate any level of skill, it just shows that you have met the basic criteria to pass.
In short, your level doesn't show your skill at all, and I think a lot of us like it that way.
To add on with what Charon is saying, I don't think rank showing skill is a good thing at all anyways. It just spawns people that try to pull rank superiority and develops egos in people. It is much better to have skill as a more abstract thing and leave it to be decided on the battlefield.
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Ah, I misunderstood what Clara Skyborn just tried to say and had to delete an entire post. XD
Anyways, thank you for lending and ear and filling us in Clara. Since you are asking for our input I think achievements like "destroy 20 goldfish" are not the sort of achievements that should block your progression. You have no way of controlling what ships you are playing against unless you have friends so completing these sort of tasks can take a very long time. Also, as I have mentioned before, I do not think it is right to force a player to get good at ships in a certain order when it comes to the experience track for the pilot. The goldfish might not be a person's strong suit and simply being bad at just one ship may bar a person from ever progressing further. It is a shame that it seems that the progression achievements will remain gated. It is frustrating when you know you have accomplished the locked achievements a dozen times over but you are not making any progress just because you can not complete one or two achievements still in your way. This I feel is what causes people to do unnatural play, because they want to start working on getting those time consuming achievements out of the way sooner rather than later.
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I would like to echo Hamster's point concerning the mic. My original use of the friend list was to identify players who played as pilot and talked (I initially only engineered). I wasn't doing this on skill level in fact, I played with many terrible captains simply because at least they were telling me orders. Even if I knew the captain was fantastic, the inability to communicate in a game that is 85% teamwork is generally a deal breaker.
In my gameplay, I hardly paid attention to the achievements until level six. You can definitely get quite a few levels without having to actively plan out your achievements.
If I may complain about one achievement though. Lochnagar kills in general seem a little mean. The round is only almost viable on a handful of guns and even the extra damage given by the round is less than two of the vanilla rounds.
Yeah that was my initial use of the friends list too. I now have a couple non talkers on my friends list but they are damn good engineers and gunners.
As for the Lochnagar, it was deadly back when heavy flack ruled the skies. I think you are misreading the description 150% damage is added to the round meaning that a locknigar round does a total of 250% base dammage. It is still less than 2 charged rounds 130%*2 = 260% base dammage but it is delivered in one chunk and gives the engineers no time to put that crucial mallet whack in.
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I got the lochnagar achievement all in one sitting of goio gameplay. It's not hard at all to do, and this was after it was nerfed so that you cannot move the gun. Gunners are important.
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As for the Lochnagar, it was deadly back when heavy flack ruled the skies. I think you are misreading the description 150% damage is added to the round meaning that a locknigar round does a total of 250% base dammage. It is still less than 2 charged rounds 130%*2 = 260% base dammage but it is delivered in one chunk and gives the engineers no time to put that crucial mallet whack in.
Ah, this puts my mind at ease a bit. I thought I was getting one 150% damage.
Annoying still but I guess not as silly as I thought.
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I haven't jumped in before now because I'm interested in getting a variety of different perspectives on this, but I should say something before we all retread the same ground over and over too many times.
The leveling system is definitely unusual in that it's a hybrid of achievement and mission systems, and for the most part I'm satisfied with how it's working. It's meant to encourage experimentation HOPEFULLY without requiring any behavior that's outright detrimental, and while it's meant to take a while to progress through, you shouldn't have to go too far out of your way to do it, and you shouldn't have to grind. In other words, it should nudge you toward varied but not unnatural play. The system itself is not likely to change.
What I do want to hear about though are the points of frustration where a particular achievement is a roadblock to progress, or encourages unnatural or detrimental play. Sometimes this is due to a bug (ramming, anyone? Sorry...), sometimes it's due to balance changes and the evolution of meta, sometimes it's just down to a bad guess, and I've certainly made plenty of missteps before. I'm always collecting feedback and have made frequent adjustments to the achievement objectives, and I'm working on another pass right now in preparation for new levels. (Also sorry about the gunner extinguishing...again, down to a bad prediction about balance. I can't remember when I looked at that one, but if it's not removed already it'll be gone in the next update.)
So please, tell me about the achievements like that one that you feel are unfair or broken, and I'll take a look and do my best to address them.
Thanks!
EDIT:
You might want to check your future achievements, I think I remember Muse saying you can earn points towards future achievements before you get to that achievement.
Nope, this is incorrect. All of the progression achievements are gated and you can only progress on the currently unlocked one.
Some future non-progression achievement tracks will be un-gated, though, so you can complete them in any order. The only one that currently works like this is the Tutorial track.
In a perfect world ... you'd have achievements classified to each peice of equipment and each ship, each weapon and each role. You'd maintain the current "Role Rank overview" to give a curt "How good are you at the role you're planning to take on...", as well as having a percentage score that showed how adept you were using the current ship, with it's current weapon load out, with your current equipment load out, that showed what percentage of all the achievements related to these currently selected things you have achieved (you could even obfuscate this value to show a simple, Bronze, Silver, Gold or 5 Star rating).
You'd then gate every ship, weapon and peice of equipment achievement progression separately. Whilst gating a lot of the required ROLE achievements into the ship, weapon or equipment progression as achievements that are both classified as both Role AND Ship, Weapon or Equipment related.
And ontop of that you'd add in Medallions that would reward a seemingly eclectic mix of achievements from different progression paths ... for example, a person who had gained ALL the initial Weapon and Gunner and Engineer Equipment achievements might well receive the Bronze "Gungineer" Medallion. These medallions would help add larger collections of achievements which would further deepen the achievement meta and potentially encourage variety.
Why would you do all this? Because competitive game communities can thrive on statistics, they provide a sense of investment and visualisation of the learning curve you and others comparatively have progressed. They tell a very personal story.
On a similar note, some statistics after each match would go a long way towards reinforcing each match as a different experience, whilst giving you an opportunity to expose players to the some of the information that drives their progression, encouraging people to get involved with progressing, thereby encouraging people to continue playing and encouraging players to improve, thereby creating a more competitive community. Showing statistics of other players would further the competitive edge, again driving people to both play more and improve etc etc.
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Maybe I'm missing the point here but I have to say it, why does it matter? I know the mentality is "I must have zeee levels!" but this isn't a run of the mill RPG where levels mean something. Sure it would be nice to have access to all of the achievements at once but this system forces a slower progression and rewards people who are willing to suffer through some painful achievements.
I hear more QQ than anything else, "I don't wanna do that! I shouldn't have to! Cater to me! :'("
I'm sorry that MUSE is forcing you to level differently than every other WOW clone, now please get over it. Work for your levels or don't it makes no difference on your skill level.
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to come back to what clara skyborn said, as long as flayed gives us the horrible slowmo/laggs, those achivements are a pain in the arse to do.
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I for one am happy they do this, it encourages people to get to know every type of ship a little better. Sometimes you'll join a crew and the captain will decide on a ship you aren't used to... do you just leave because 'oh my god i hate the [insert ship type] its so lame and [insert its apparent flaws] or do you suck it up and get on with it knowing where you should keep a wary eye and play to the ships strengths?
Well that's my opinion, obviously everyone is entitled to theirs but ultimatly we didn't make the game so the final decision
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to come back to what clara skyborn said, as long as flayed gives us the horrible slowmo/laggs, those achivements are a pain in the arse to do.
Yes, and I know the big CP achievements, particularly Flayed, are causing some pain and gating progress. However, I haven't made changes to these because this is a map/optimization/performance problem, and to some extent a population problem, rather than an unfairness in the achievements themselves. I'd rather address the underlying causes that make these maps unpopular/difficult to play (which we have been doing, with performance improvements and of course a big population boost, and we're still working on it) rather than say "ok, then don't play those maps." In the meantime those will remain more difficult to achieve than the others, and for that I apologize.
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I've actually been having a lot of fun getting the Lochnagar achievement lately, and like Zill said, having good gunners matter. That being said...
Don't remove the achievement, bring back the old Lochnagar! I'll have to start another thread for this because it needs a comeback.
Also, as far as achievements go, although I've finished most of mine already, the pilot defend achievements are really confusing. Not sure they're functioning as they're meant to. Currently "defend" means to neutralize a point held by the enemy. This doesn't seem to make much sense.
Since all of the defend achievements are for Galleons and Junkers, one would naturally assume "defend" means to block the neutralization of a point your team already controls.
Jess, what are your thoughts on this?
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could you at least then put the flayed one to the very end of that map achivement list, cuz it's blocking 3 more achivements that i can do without/with less lagg. I know that sounds a bit harsh but as i said before, it's nut fun at all to play flayed with such a lagg that you have the feeling you could walk faster than those ships fly. Also you could argue then, it's at the back of the list cuz it's more difficult to achive.
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Agreed with PzychoDude.
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So please, tell me about the achievements like that one that you feel are unfair or broken, and I'll take a look and do my best to address them.
Rank 3 Gunner Multiclassing Achievement
"Fire Fighter"
Extinguish 30 fires.
There's already considerable debate about the usefulness of a gunner vs an engineer in most situations. A gunner with a fire extinguisher can't repair or rebuild his own gun, requiring an engineer to babysit his equipment for him, and can't help whack engines or the hull when things get dangerous. This achievement, I feel, doesn't really promote potentially-useful experimentation or reward effective teamwork, and instead creates a need to actively disadvantage your ship and your other crewmates for however long it takes to tally up. Especially coming in at rank 3 of 10 in the line, where the next 7 achievements following it are all totally achievable through normal, effective gameplay, I think this is the very definition of a gated 'chieve.
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(Also sorry about the gunner extinguishing...again, down to a bad prediction about balance. I can't remember when I looked at that one, but if it's not removed already it'll be gone in the next update.)
... y u no read?
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I was elected to lead, not to read.
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I was elected to lead, not to read.
There is so much salute-worthiness in there.
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Also, as far as achievements go, although I've finished most of mine already, the pilot defend achievements are really confusing. Not sure they're functioning as they're meant to. Currently "defend" means to neutralize a point held by the enemy. This doesn't seem to make much sense.
Since all of the defend achievements are for Galleons and Junkers, one would naturally assume "defend" means to block the neutralization of a point your team already controls.
Jess, what are your thoughts on this?
My understanding is that it what it means (prevent a contest). There seems to be a ton of confusion about it, though, so I should make sure. I'll get back to you.
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I for one do not care for achievements that much but I certainly understand the frustration at having locked achievements for those that enjoy them.
A few have said that it's designed that way to promote experimentation which is by no means a bad thing but having them locked means that it's more forced on the player rather than encouraged.
For those that enjoy the game, experimentation will most likely come naturally anyway so why lock the achievements in the first place?
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The thing is, it's not really being forced at all. You don't need achievements. They don't make you better at what you do. If you don't want to get achievement x, then you can simply avoid it. There are a bunch of different categories anyways, so it shouldn't be much of a problem to leave one or two aside.
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The thing is, it's not really being forced at all. You don't need achievements. They don't make you better at what you do. If you don't want to get achievement x, then you can simply avoid it. There are a bunch of different categories anyways, so it shouldn't be much of a problem to leave one or two aside.
This so much.
It's not like you're forced into doing something you don't want to do just to advance in the game. You have access to everything and can have just as much fun being level 1 as you can at level 11. There are a few achievements I've completely ignored (taking an extinguisher as a gunner, for example) because they limit my effectiveness or they're just not something I want to do.
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There is actually strategy in remaining level 1. Everyone will underestimate you. Maybe.
That said, I am far less likely to listen or even take a level 1 seriously. And I like being able to see how I stack up against other people. This might not be the best measuring stick, but it is a measuring stick nonetheless. These levels might only have the meaning we give them, but I like a badge that shows how much I've played. It sort of shows how much I care about the game, in spite of the inane things it requires me to do!
(Plus I want all those cool cool outfits!)
I'm caught in the crossroads of both really liking that there are levels ( and that they are not easy to get) and very glad that they don't actually mean anything. I would never take an extinguisher in a tourney, but if it's casual...I like to have silly or experimental games sometimes. Losing is fun!
Point being:
I want to be the very best
Like no one ever was
To complete pilot is my real quest
Eleven is my cause! (Or whatever number is highest at the time your read this.)
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If anything, my only complaint is about the map specific achievements like the dunes one being a bit too specific. Ramming in dunes yeeee.
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If anything, my only complaint is about the map specific achievements like the dunes one being a bit too specific. Ramming in dunes yeeee.
I'll admit that's a little bit annoying as well, but I can understand it as being similar to specific ship achievements. It's to get people playing on the different maps instead of every other game being played on dunes. To be entirely honest, I wouldn't have gotten off dunes if it wasn't for an achievement. Now I enjoy many of the maps that were created for the game.
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If anything, my only complaint is about the map specific achievements like the dunes one being a bit too specific. Ramming in dunes yeeee.
I'll admit that's a little bit annoying as well, but I can understand it as being similar to specific ship achievements. It's to get people playing on the different maps instead of every other game being played on dunes. To be entirely honest, I wouldn't have gotten off dunes if it wasn't for an achievement. Now I enjoy many of the maps that were created for the game.
But but but!.. Zee rams ; n;
Anyway, I agree, though I believe many people would eventually get bored of Dunes and try something else, this specific achievement is still kinda annoying x3
Also what's with the most popular maps in most games I play being desert themed?..
CS = De_Dust2
TF2 = Dustbowl
now GoI with Dunes.
heck even in CoD4, Crossfire, imo the most popular map, is pretty much in a desert enviroment.
I request the next super popular map be in an arctic enviroment >:c
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Ramming in Dunes is irritating. It's a lot of components for a map so open that it doesn't really suit ramming in the first place.
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It used to be ram kills, not just component kills. I wasn't to say that's harder but idk, lol.
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It used to be ram kills, not just component kills. I wasn't to say that's harder but idk, lol.
Honestly I'd prefer ram kills, at least that way I can get the hull down with a gatling and then moonshine ahead; as it stands now I just have to arbitrarily crash into them and hope I take out one of their components.
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Naw, the Pyr has that nice point. Just aim the giant spike at the balloon or something. Or the galleons guns.
Not easy, but not that bad.
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I'd like to chime in to say that I loathe GoIO's achievement system. It's actually worse than most achievement systems, which already occasionally cause sub-optimal playing. However, it's generally a rare thing to see in other games. But here, it seems to be every fourth random crew member I get is on what I've affectionately dubbed a "wrench quest."
An engineer with a mallet and pipe wrench. A gunner with an extinguisher. A crew member joining as a Pilot to get multi-classing achievements. These are not only sub-optimal, they cost games. It's got to be one of the most destructive achievement systems I've ever seen and I truly wish it never saw the light of day.
I'm a strong opponent of any achievement system because the above is almost inevitable. However, a lot of people like the grind and sense of progress. So at the end of the day, it depends on whether or not you want a larger playerbase or more solid gameplay. It's definitely more profitable not to care about the grognardy types such as myself, after all. :P
I know Muse wants to see its playerbase experiment and have fun with their game, but honestly the lengths to which this is taken are unsettling, and always have been. From the way they withhold balance-relevant data to the achievement system, I think there are things that could be done a lot better.
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The thing is, it's not really being forced at all. You don't need achievements. They don't make you better at what you do. If you don't want to get achievement x, then you can simply avoid it. There are a bunch of different categories anyways, so it shouldn't be much of a problem to leave one or two aside.
My previous post was a bit simple so allow me to elaborate.
I certainly agree from your perspective and I play how I am most comfortable but i'm thinking from the perspective of the OP. As someone who use to care about achievements I don't understand the benefit of having a locked achievement system.
True enough, as you said, there are various categories meaning that while you earn other achievements you would, in theory, be well on your way to earning some of the more problematic ones but so far I have been playing mostly the same maps and ships so while I can appreciate what their method of thinking was behind it I still don't think it works all that well and I don't think locking achievements is required.
Those who don't care about achievements (me) won't be affected by the locking and will most likely experiment naturally and for those that don't, locking achievements won't persuade them otherwise.
Those who do care about achievements (OP) are forced to experiment in a very specific manner where as if it were unlocked they would still experiment but in much broader terms.
Locked achievements doesn't promote experimentation anymore than unlocked ones do.
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Chiming in as another player who dislikes the achievement system as it currently stands, for basically the reasons that have already been expressed.
Of course it's totally feasible to just ignore achievements; it's easy to get to level 4 or 5 without even knowing how levelling works, and there's no real point to the levels other than signalling in the lobby that you're not a total first-day noob.
But it feels like something of a missed opportunity. I think it would be more fun for players if the achievements were organized into a greater number of shallower categories, with more of an actual progression within each category.
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Yeah the achivements should maybe not be in a particular order, a day or two ago I played a game with someone who had to use helium and vent chute, for 180 seconds, maybe that should be lowered drastically, tactically most people I've seen never pick them up at all, they prefer using something like claw kerosene bumpers.
In general the achivements should maybe not be in a tree like they are now.
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I'm happy the way it is. It encourages people to try different things and different tactics. Some that have changed my views and helped me win in other circumstances. Have an open mind. its not forcing you to be terrible, its helping you create a better synergy with your team-mates :)
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Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.
Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.
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Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.
Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.
(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)
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Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.
Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.
No offense, but GOI is not a game where stats, at least those like k/d or such matter. If you really think your stats are that important, then you could just be a lumberfish. They are probably the easiest to pilot with if you're good, as most stuff relies on your gunner, so if you can get a good gunner on your ship, and you are not terrible, than you should be able to get that achievement.
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Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.
Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game however you want. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.
(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)
Uhm... Yes it does? If I want to complete an achievement I am obviously forced to do so in the way the achievement is set up. I can't complete an achievement for the Goldfish using the Galleon, thus if I want that achievement I am forced to play as the Goldfish.
Making assumptions like "if you care about achievement you shouldn't care for unnatural gameplay" is just a logical fallacy, in this game achievements=leveling and while I normally don't care about achievements I do care about leveling. In most games leveling is tied to experience and just playing the game however you want, thus I can ignore achievement to pursue the objective of leveling up, in this game I cannot do that.
As for stats and k/d ratio not counting that is also a subjective opinion, the game provides me with comprehensive stats for my character, thus I care for said stats, be it k/d ratio, level and all that good stuff.
If the game didn't want me to care then such stats would be hidden and/or there wouldn't be a leveling system at all.
If something is a feature in the game then it's logical to care about it.
Also, I don't like the Goldfish, not even a Lumberfish, I do just fine with Squid and Galleon, thanks. I can pilot other ships, which I would argue are easier to pilot then the Squid and the Galleon (at least if you want to win), I just don't want to because I don't like them.
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Right, so this topic is still going on.
Think of it this way. The levels in Guns of Icarus represent renown and not experience (you can also view interpersonal relationships of the players as a secondary renown system, basically like known with in the airship world but not really in the world at large). you complete achievements (i.e. great actions) and thus your renown in the Guns of Icarus universe increases and you receive more and more prestigious titles from the various places and people in the world.
now i know the achievement tree system is the main direction this debate has gone to. but im still confused by it. in an RPG people dont get pissed when you cant put your points in whatever you want right away, skill trees are basically standard.
Since this game is purely co-op pvp. the skill of the player in different roles is representative of that skill tree. Say an engineer gets better at floating gunning and repair. that would correlate to the multi-classing tree within the engineer tree. and they will end up getting more multi-classing achievements. and eventually a higher renown in the world as and engineer.
Achievements are supposed to be challenges. its supposed to be a great accomplishment in universe. If you are going to be the kind of person who sets out to build their renown in the world. be ready for a challenge. otherwise, if you are setting out to be just great at what you do. you will eventually get the achievements, and thus world renown (i.e. level) will be slower to rise. but your secondary renown (i.e. renown among airship crews) will grow quickly.
tl:dr Achievements are pvp equivalent of skill trees in this game. level represents completion of great deeds. Achievements are supposed to be challenges. be challenged. you are a character in the world.
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Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.
Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game however you want. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.
(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)
Uhm... Yes it does? If I want to complete an achievement I am obviously forced to do so in the way the achievement is set up. I can't complete an achievement for the Goldfish using the Galleon, thus if I want that achievement I am forced to play as the Goldfish.
Making assumptions like "if you care about achievement you shouldn't care for unnatural gameplay" is just a logical fallacy, in this game achievements=leveling and while I normally don't care about achievements I do care about leveling. In most games leveling is tied to experience and just playing the game however you want, thus I can ignore achievement to pursue the objective of leveling up, in this game I cannot do that.
As for stats and k/d ratio not counting that is also a subjective opinion, the game provides me with comprehensive stats for my character, thus I care for said stats, be it k/d ratio, level and all that good stuff.
If the game didn't want me to care then such stats would be hidden and/or there wouldn't be a leveling system at all.
If something is a feature in the game then it's logical to care about it.
Also, I don't like the Goldfish, not even a Lumberfish, I do just fine with Squid and Galleon, thanks. I can pilot other ships, which I would argue are easier to pilot then the Squid and the Galleon (at least if you want to win), I just don't want to because I don't like them.
Back when I played Pokemon I did not give a damn about the "beauty pageants". I do not think it was logical to care about those. Feature != Something you should care about. Feature = Will make someone somewhere interested. Besides, it's a video game. It's not logcial to care about it at all, strictly speaking. Generally, logic and emotion don't mix. Be careful throwing around the word logic. You've got your opinion, but logic is a harsh mistress who will quickly remove the substructure from your argument.
It's your right to care about levels. Or at least, it's not something someone can take away from you, but GoI doesn't have mechanic advancement like CoD. It's a different mentality. CoD and those games are actually worse! I can't get this special awesome gun until I play for 50 hours? What is that!?
Even RPGs and other games box you in MUCH more than GoI!
What? My mage can't learn meteor until level 27? Well damn it.
In Guns:
Wait, I don't get better repair tools until...oh.
Wait, I can't use the Goldfish until...oh.
Wait, I can't equip a Lumberjack until...oh.
Also I want to point out that the stats are independent of level.
At least, the k/d's get you nothing.
Stats are for people who are interested in that sort of thing. You could play the whole game without ever opening the progress tab. Some folks just like data.
It you care about looking like a high-level guy, then yeah, the game makes you do silly things to get there.
Hey man, you are the one who decided to care about levels. You get everything right off the bat. It's true that some ships are easier to fly, but I suggest to learn and become skilled with all of them! There is a lot of strategy that goes into a good GoI game, and each ship has it's part.
Welcome to Guns of Icarus: where the achievements are made up and the levels don't matter.
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Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.
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Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.
What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.
And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.
So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.
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Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.
What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.
And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.
So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that the achievement system is set up perfectly, but there are a few things to consider:
1) Levels affect nothing. Yeah, sure, you get costumes but in no way is that game breaking or inhibiting. I don't agree with your statement of "That alone is reason enough", not even sure why you think that.
2) Levels give a general sense of game experience, but to say that it has something to do with skill is rather false. Considering many of the achievements currently require you to do in game stuff which is actually not a great way to do a job, if you're completing them you're probably hurting your team considering what's going on.
3) While an overhaul of the achievement and level system would be nifty, it's also not broken right now. I'd rather have the glaring problems in the game fixed first before we go onto something that really doesn't affect the game at all.
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You can also view interpersonal relationships of the players as a secondary renown system, basically like known with in the airship world but not really in the world at large.
I choose to view my interpersonal relationships as the primary renown system. There is no mechanical advantage to being high level player. There is a slight social advantage to having a high level, since random people will more likely join the ship of a high level player to avoid getting stuck with a crappy captain. However as most high level players can attest there is also a social disadvantage since it is harder to start a game when the other team doesn't fill up due to perceived level imbalance.
I choose to peruse interpersonal relationships because it is far more gratifying to see "You are a good guy, mind if I add you to my friend's list?" in lobby chat than "*Bing* achievement unlocked!" in the top left corner. If you play the game long enough you will blunder through most of the < level 6 achievements anyway. Most of us assume any one over a level 4 knows what they are doing.
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What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.
And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.
So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.
Basically what Imagine said.
Do I think the achievement system is perfect? No, most systems aren't. But I'm certainly not actively bothered by it and I actually think it works fairly well. I'd much rather have Muse focus on other game issues than working on an entire rework of the achievement system. And sorry, but "level matters because it unlocks cosmetic items" is just silly. They don't affect any actual game mechanics. I understand thinking that levels represent some measure of skill, but that's really not the case, and that's what I love about the existing system. I love that level 1s have access to everything that level 13s do, and I love that a team of level 2s who communicate well can take down a team of level 10s who don't work well together.
So in short, I wouldn't be opposed to any and all changes to the achievement system, but overall I'm happy with it and I think Muse's efforts would be best spent in other areas of the game.
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Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.
What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.
And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.
So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.
I do care about the levels.
[realtalk]
I sort of think of it like meta-breakout.
You've got a set of cells, right? Some are locked at low levels, but you still have a bunch. Then on each cell is a linear progression. Each cell represents a 'theme'. Once you do more of the basic stuff, you unlock more challenging or game-broadening themes. Sometimes these take less time to unlock, but they challenge the way I think about the game, and challenge which things I consider good and bad.
I've realized through this system that nothing in this game is really 'good' or 'bad'. It really comes down to 'I know how to use this effectively' or 'I am unsure how to employ this'. Instead of being a test of how well I grind (so many games out there do grinding, go play one of them if you want to grind levels) it is a test of how willing I am to learn. That is what makes this whole game awesome.
You've got to learn. You've got to work well with others.
The locked progression gives character and accessibility to the system.
I think my little theory goes something like this:
If you play with people around your level, they should have roughly the same achievements. You can swap tips if you have different ones. Not sure if that's why the dev's do it, but it's a little side-effect.
Later on, the system does open up. But the linear progression still provides rate-limiting. I feel that maybe they could be ranked by difficulty or something, but I like that the system has charater. Too many games cop out and give up, telling the players to do what they want.
Guns has a unique system. I'd hate to see it watered down. Even flaws become happy little quirks if you deal with them enough. I've worked pretty hard on some of the achievements, and I'm proud of my modest level. But I honestly believe that doing them helped me to be a better pilot.
[/realtalk]
So my reasons are pretty personal.
I like difficult, clunky things that people rally around. I also play Dwarf Fortress. Go figure.
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I also play Dwarf Fortress.
Next time please put the relevant bit at the start of your post, this explains everything! :D
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My stance on this is a bit unforgiving:
Your level is a measure of your experience. I want to be able to see your level and have a bit of a general idea of what to expect from you, so that I can make decisions accordingly. I want to be able to safely assume that a lvl 9 gunner knows how to aim a lumberjack, and that a lvl 6 engineer knows where the balloon on my ship is.
If it were me, I would make the achievement system even LESS forgiving to people who don't branch out.
If some people are unhappy that they have to fly ships or man guns that they don't like in order to get achievements: I'm sorry but tough shit. Because I don't want to find out mid-game that my gunner didn't bring the right ammo types for my gun because he got all the way to lvl 8 without ever touching it because "he didn't like it."
This game is about teamwork, and part of being a team player is having the flexibility to perform the role that the team needs. I don't think that people who refuse fly certain ships, or refuse to use certain guns, because they don't like them should be as high a rank.
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First of all I don't know why you're so concerned with the achievements.
They're designed so people who want to aim for them and claim cosmetic rewards or just a higher title in game.
I also enjoy the fact that they "FORCE" me as you would say to do things I usually wouldn't ever use or do; Granted that it may put myself and my team at a disadvantage when I have to rebuild X parts in y seconds of destruction as a gunner but it's long term goal is to "train" and "educate" players in what high level or even competitive play can be like and that's why I"m confused in why you're angry about this?
If you're top the type to learn or try new things then simply don't do the achievements? Nobody is forcing you to do them although the level progression is tied in together with the achievements it's basically a quick buffer for most players. Example being If I see a level 11 Pilot I can be dam sure he knows what he is doing and won't have any problems, just like having a level 7+ gunner I can be sure he knows what ammo to bring with him for each gun to be useful as well as knowing how to shoot each gun.
That's how I view the achievements in this game compared to other games; the view being that it's an extended tutorial in a sense that it makes you use combinations of ammo/tools/guns and tactics you normally wouldn't. :D
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Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.
Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game however you want. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.
(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)
Uhm... Yes it does? If I want to complete an achievement I am obviously forced to do so in the way the achievement is set up. I can't complete an achievement for the Goldfish using the Galleon, thus if I want that achievement I am forced to play as the Goldfish.
Making assumptions like "if you care about achievement you shouldn't care for unnatural gameplay" is just a logical fallacy, in this game achievements=leveling and while I normally don't care about achievements I do care about leveling. In most games leveling is tied to experience and just playing the game however you want, thus I can ignore achievement to pursue the objective of leveling up, in this game I cannot do that.
As for stats and k/d ratio not counting that is also a subjective opinion, the game provides me with comprehensive stats for my character, thus I care for said stats, be it k/d ratio, level and all that good stuff.
If the game didn't want me to care then such stats would be hidden and/or there wouldn't be a leveling system at all.
If something is a feature in the game then it's logical to care about it.
Also, I don't like the Goldfish, not even a Lumberfish, I do just fine with Squid and Galleon, thanks. I can pilot other ships, which I would argue are easier to pilot then the Squid and the Galleon (at least if you want to win), I just don't want to because I don't like them.
your last sentence... You don't want to because you don't like them. I don't like them either but so what? you ever played COD? they have random ass things to do to earn stuff to look good (because face it, rank is just to look good not a question of skill but experience)
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First of all I don't know why you're so concerned with the achievements.
They're designed so people who want to aim for them and claim cosmetic rewards or just a higher title in game.
I also enjoy the fact that they "FORCE" me as you would say to do things I usually wouldn't ever use or do; Granted that it may put myself and my team at a disadvantage when I have to rebuild X parts in y seconds of destruction as a gunner but it's long term goal is to "train" and "educate" players in what high level or even competitive play can be like and that's why I"m confused in why you're angry about this?
If you're top the type to learn or try new things then simply don't do the achievements? Nobody is forcing you to do them although the level progression is tied in together with the achievements it's basically a quick buffer for most players. Example being If I see a level 11 Pilot I can be dam sure he knows what he is doing and won't have any problems, just like having a level 7+ gunner I can be sure he knows what ammo to bring with him for each gun to be useful as well as knowing how to shoot each gun.
That's how I view the achievements in this game compared to other games; the view being that it's an extended tutorial in a sense that it makes you use combinations of ammo/tools/guns and tactics you normally wouldn't. :D
Salute!
you've hit the nail on the head there bud!