Author Topic: Achievement system flaw  (Read 35736 times)

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2013, 11:22:30 pm »

As for the Lochnagar, it was deadly back when heavy flack ruled the skies. I think you are misreading the description 150% damage is added to the round meaning that a locknigar round does a total of 250% base dammage. It is still less than 2 charged rounds 130%*2 = 260% base dammage but it is delivered in one chunk and gives the engineers no time to put that crucial mallet whack in.

Ah, this puts my mind at ease a bit. I thought I was getting one 150% damage.

Annoying still but I guess not as silly as I thought.

Offline knoxi

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2013, 06:12:24 am »
I haven't jumped in before now because I'm interested in getting a variety of different perspectives on this, but I should say something before we all retread the same ground over and over too many times.

The leveling system is definitely unusual in that it's a hybrid of achievement and mission systems, and for the most part I'm satisfied with how it's working. It's meant to encourage experimentation HOPEFULLY without requiring any behavior that's outright detrimental, and while it's meant to take a while to progress through, you shouldn't have to go too far out of your way to do it, and you shouldn't have to grind. In other words, it should nudge you toward varied but not unnatural play. The system itself is not likely to change.

What I do want to hear about though are the points of frustration where a particular achievement is a roadblock to progress, or encourages unnatural or detrimental play. Sometimes this is due to a bug (ramming, anyone? Sorry...), sometimes it's due to balance changes and the evolution of meta, sometimes it's just down to a bad guess, and I've certainly made plenty of missteps before. I'm always collecting feedback and have made frequent adjustments to the achievement objectives, and I'm working on another pass right now in preparation for new levels. (Also sorry about the gunner extinguishing...again, down to a bad prediction about balance. I can't remember when I looked at that one, but if it's not removed already it'll be gone in the next update.)

So please, tell me about the achievements like that one that you feel are unfair or broken, and I'll take a look and do my best to address them.

Thanks!

EDIT:

You might want to check your future achievements, I think I remember Muse saying you can earn points towards future achievements before you get to that achievement.

Nope, this is incorrect. All of the progression achievements are gated and you can only progress on the currently unlocked one.

Some future non-progression achievement tracks will be un-gated, though, so you can complete them in any order. The only one that currently works like this is the Tutorial track.

In a perfect world ... you'd have achievements classified to each peice of equipment and each ship, each weapon and each role. You'd maintain the current "Role Rank overview" to give a curt "How good are you at the role you're planning to take on...", as well as having a percentage score that showed how adept you were using the current ship, with it's current weapon load out, with your current equipment load out, that showed what percentage of all the achievements related to these currently selected things you have achieved (you could even obfuscate this value to show a simple, Bronze, Silver, Gold or 5 Star rating).

You'd then gate every ship, weapon and peice of equipment achievement progression separately. Whilst gating a lot of the required ROLE achievements into the ship, weapon or equipment progression as achievements that are both classified as both Role AND Ship, Weapon or Equipment related.

And ontop of that you'd add in Medallions that would reward a seemingly eclectic mix of achievements from different progression paths ... for example, a person who had gained ALL the initial Weapon and Gunner and Engineer Equipment achievements might well receive the Bronze "Gungineer" Medallion. These medallions would help add larger collections of achievements which would further deepen the achievement meta and potentially encourage variety.

Why would you do all this? Because competitive game communities can thrive on statistics, they provide a sense of investment and visualisation of the learning curve you and others comparatively have progressed. They tell a very personal story.

On a similar note, some statistics after each match would go a long way towards reinforcing each match as a different experience, whilst giving you an opportunity to expose players to the some of the information that drives their progression, encouraging people to get involved with progressing, thereby encouraging people to continue playing and encouraging players to improve, thereby creating a more competitive community. Showing statistics of other players would further the competitive edge, again driving people to both play more and improve etc etc.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 06:16:04 am by knoxi »

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2013, 10:07:24 am »
Maybe I'm missing the point here but I have to say it, why does it matter? I know the mentality is "I must have zeee levels!" but this isn't  a run of the mill RPG where levels mean something.  Sure it would be nice to have access to all of the achievements at once but this system forces a slower progression and rewards people who are willing to suffer through some painful achievements.

I hear more QQ than anything else, "I don't wanna do that! I shouldn't have to! Cater to me! :'("

I'm sorry that MUSE is forcing you to level differently than every other WOW clone, now please get over it. Work for your levels or don't it makes no difference on your skill level.

Offline PzychoDude

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2013, 04:13:41 pm »
to come back to what clara skyborn said, as long as flayed gives us the horrible slowmo/laggs, those achivements are a pain in the arse to do.

Offline Gambrill

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2013, 04:50:28 pm »
I for one am happy they do this, it encourages people to get to know every type of ship a little better. Sometimes you'll join a crew and the captain will decide on a ship you aren't used to... do you just leave because 'oh my god i hate the [insert ship type] its so lame and [insert its apparent flaws] or do you suck it up and get on with it knowing where you should keep a wary eye and play to the ships strengths?

Well that's my opinion, obviously everyone is entitled to theirs but ultimatly we didn't make the game so the final decision

Offline Clara Skyborn

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2013, 11:48:35 am »
to come back to what clara skyborn said, as long as flayed gives us the horrible slowmo/laggs, those achivements are a pain in the arse to do.

Yes, and I know the big CP achievements, particularly Flayed, are causing some pain and gating progress. However, I haven't made changes to these because this is a map/optimization/performance problem, and to some extent a population problem, rather than an unfairness in the achievements themselves. I'd rather address the underlying causes that make these maps unpopular/difficult to play (which we have been doing, with performance improvements and of course a big population boost, and we're still working on it) rather than say "ok, then don't play those maps." In the meantime those will remain more difficult to achieve than the others, and for that I apologize.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2013, 02:32:51 am »
I've actually been having a lot of fun getting the Lochnagar achievement lately, and like Zill said, having good gunners matter.  That being said...

Don't remove the achievement, bring back the old Lochnagar!  I'll have to start another thread for this because it needs a comeback.

Also, as far as achievements go, although I've finished most of mine already, the pilot defend achievements are really confusing.  Not sure they're functioning as they're meant to.  Currently "defend" means to neutralize a point held by the enemy.  This doesn't seem to make much sense. 

Since all of the defend achievements are for Galleons and Junkers, one would naturally assume "defend" means to block the neutralization of a point your team already controls.

Jess, what are your thoughts on this?

Offline PzychoDude

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2013, 08:38:02 pm »
could you at least then put the flayed one to the very end of that map achivement list, cuz it's blocking 3 more achivements that i can do without/with less lagg. I know that sounds a bit harsh but as i said before, it's nut fun at all to play flayed with such a lagg that you have the feeling you could walk faster than those ships fly. Also you could argue then, it's at the back of the list cuz it's more difficult to achive.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2013, 08:39:43 pm »
Agreed with PzychoDude.

Offline BigGunsNeverTire

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2013, 10:05:33 pm »
Quote
So please, tell me about the achievements like that one that you feel are unfair or broken, and I'll take a look and do my best to address them.

Rank 3 Gunner Multiclassing Achievement
"Fire Fighter"
Extinguish 30 fires.


There's already considerable debate about the usefulness of a gunner vs an engineer in most situations.  A gunner with a fire extinguisher can't repair or rebuild his own gun, requiring an engineer to babysit his equipment for him, and can't help whack engines or the hull when things get dangerous.  This achievement, I feel, doesn't really promote potentially-useful experimentation or reward effective teamwork, and instead creates a need to actively disadvantage your ship and your other crewmates for however long it takes to tally up.  Especially coming in at rank 3 of 10 in the line, where the next 7 achievements following it are all totally achievable through normal, effective gameplay, I think this is the very definition of a gated 'chieve.

Offline PzychoDude

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2013, 10:53:57 pm »
(Also sorry about the gunner extinguishing...again, down to a bad prediction about balance. I can't remember when I looked at that one, but if it's not removed already it'll be gone in the next update.)

... y u no read?

Offline BigGunsNeverTire

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2013, 11:20:05 pm »
I was elected to lead, not to read.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2013, 11:40:17 pm »
I was elected to lead, not to read.

There is so much salute-worthiness in there.

Offline Clara Skyborn

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2013, 11:28:06 am »
Also, as far as achievements go, although I've finished most of mine already, the pilot defend achievements are really confusing.  Not sure they're functioning as they're meant to.  Currently "defend" means to neutralize a point held by the enemy.  This doesn't seem to make much sense. 

Since all of the defend achievements are for Galleons and Junkers, one would naturally assume "defend" means to block the neutralization of a point your team already controls.

Jess, what are your thoughts on this?

My understanding is that it what it means (prevent a contest). There seems to be a ton of confusion about it, though, so I should make sure. I'll get back to you.

Offline SeaOfInsanity

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2013, 11:55:17 am »
I for one do not care for achievements that much but I certainly understand the frustration at having locked achievements for those that enjoy them.
A few have said that it's designed that way to promote experimentation which is by no means a bad thing but having them locked means that it's more forced on the player rather than encouraged.
For those that enjoy the game, experimentation will most likely come naturally anyway so why lock the achievements in the first place?