Author Topic: Achievement system flaw  (Read 38357 times)

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2013, 12:37:07 pm »
Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise,

EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

That was the entire point of my post. You can get to level 6 without having to use anything specific ever.

EVER.

Conservatively, and very averagely, based off my gameplay that's 50 hours or so of piloting and nothing else.

No one's forcing you to do anything. Others have already covered this. But it still doesn't matter cause you could fly a Spire with the same loadout every single game without ever using a pilot tool, engy tool, or ammo, and still reach my level.

Why even care about 1 locked Spire achievement when you have 28 achievements that you get just by playing the game. Hell most of them you'll get accidentally.

Make sense this time?

Right, well lets make what you said even clearer. 10 of those 28 achievements (the career ones) require you to play a minimum of 319 games to finish them all. I would have to play that many games plus complete the other 18 achievements just to get to level 6 for one of the roles. Let me also point out that 10 of that remaining 18 (the victory ones) require you to win 318 games to complete them all.

So rewording it another way..just to get to level 6 in one role in the way you are suggesting I would have to play a minimum of 319 games, lose only once and also complete 8 other achievements. I do not know about you, but after all that I would hope to be a bit more than a level 6 by then. This is why I feel I have no choice but to go out of my way to finish the other achievements, doing things otherwise would take ludicrously long for very little pay off and my rank would never match my experience and ability..

Of course if I was able to do the achievements in any order. Then most matches I play should contribute in some way towards my ranking progression and not just by my number of games and victories.

Offline Shinkurex

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2013, 12:38:04 pm »
Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise,

EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

That was the entire point of my post. You can get to level 6 without having to use anything specific ever.

EVER.

Conservatively, and very averagely, based off my gameplay that's 50 hours or so of piloting and nothing else.

No one's forcing you to do anything. Others have already covered this. But it still doesn't matter cause you could fly a Spire with the same loadout every single game without ever using a pilot tool, engy tool, or ammo, and still reach my level.

Why even care about 1 locked Spire achievement when you have 28 achievements that you get just by playing the game. Hell most of them you'll get accidentally.

Make sense this time?

wow... let's take a step back for a bit.... These are all valid arguments, and the achievement system could definitely be looked at... Personally, I don't mind the current system, as I've been through it, and it's fun to work with the challenges... let's please keep things civil :)

*Edit* this could just be me reading anger in a passionate discussion... If so, I apologize

Offline Gato Blanco

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 12:42:24 pm »
I see what youre saying, Linen.  Class levels are just numbers in this game; they say "Look at me!  a)  I've played so long!  b) I've tried new things!  c) I'm an achievement hoe!"  You can choose to do them if you feel like it.  The thing is, the point Haven brought up was that  other people sometimes suck.

Earlier today, an engineer really wanted to level up his chemspray and buff hammer, while being main engineer so he could buff more, where as I wanted him to use the repair loadout, or be a gungineer.  I brushed it off, but with the achievement choosing ability, he would have learned something new (the achievement choosig ability), pick up credit for an achievement that would have made him more effective.

Mind you I didn't care that much; I let him use his loadout and just laughed as we got curbstomped, but I'm just crazy like that.

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2013, 12:47:50 pm »
Sorry Shrinkurex, I will tone it down a bit. I just get passionate when I am in a debate.

Offline Linen

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2013, 01:12:06 pm »
It only seems angry cause I had to say the same thing twice. Not really passionate, just trying to be clear.

The example I gave was obviously extreme. Yes it's going to take a long time to level that way. My point (again to reiterate... sigh...) was that even a completely inflexible person who purposely avoids achievements is going to eventually reach level 6. This wasn't including restricting maps and game types because that's just getting ridiculous.

To Gato, yes. Achievements make people useless sometimes. Post patch balloon buffing anyone? However I was solely addressing SilentHaven's point that achievements forced you to play stuff you didn't want to in order to rank up. At a certain point, yes they do. But by then you'll be so far into the game you'll probably have gotten bored of your Hwatcha/Gatling Spire and started to at least try different pilot tools.

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2013, 01:15:58 pm »
Here is something to think about. If people are saying that rank does not matter, maybe that is because rank is not accurately displaying a person's experience and skill in their role? After all, we had just established that a person could have 318 victories under their belt and only be rank 6 in a single role. Yet I am sure a person can be much better ranked with only half as many games if she/he went out of her/his way to laboriously grind through the achievement in order. Maybe fixing the achievement system will give the ranks true meaning again?

Offline Moo

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2013, 01:35:10 pm »
At least one of the new (misc) achievement paths isn't order-dependant. So it shouldn't be a problem to convert some of class paths to be like that... if that's what they want anyway.
If people could basically do the easier/more convenient things without first doing the harder/more troublesome ones first, that'd mean people would get achievements quicker overall. This would mean people go up in levels quicker, and then perhaps get stuck because they're left with the annoying ones. This doesn't really seem like an improvement to me. At least now you can tell by someone's level that they've put some time into it, which is more likely to correlate to an improvement in skill than if they had just rushed through the achievements they could...

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2013, 01:38:21 pm »
It only seems angry cause I had to say the same thing twice. Not really passionate, just trying to be clear.

The example I gave was obviously extreme. Yes it's going to take a long time to level that way. My point (again to reiterate... sigh...) was that even a completely inflexible person who purposely avoids achievements is going to eventually reach level 6. This wasn't including restricting maps and game types because that's just getting ridiculous.

To Gato, yes. Achievements make people useless sometimes. Post patch balloon buffing anyone? However I was solely addressing SilentHaven's point that achievements forced you to play stuff you didn't want to in order to rank up. At a certain point, yes they do. But by then you'll be so far into the game you'll probably have gotten bored of your Hwatcha/Gatling Spire and started to at least try different pilot tools.
Then you missed the entire point of the thread. Some of us are saying that the achievements require us to be too flexible. Making us go out of our way to achieve very particular missions in a very particular order to the point we often can not play how we want if we hope to make any progress in rank. All we want is for us to be able to achieve them out of order so that we are more likely to make headway in some of them as we play naturally, not be forced to make changes to our normal game play to try to meet them as they come available.

Sure, I can play my spire how I want anytime. But each time I do it will not help me much in gaining rank. As I said in many ways already, I would only make any real progress in gaining rank by stopping my preferred method of play and directly making an effort to complete the challenges currently open and available, any other, less focused, effort would yield only miniscule results by comparison.

All this means that ranks represents who spent more time grinding achievements rather than who had played the game more and is more of a veteran. To me, this is an issue.

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2013, 01:45:21 pm »
At least one of the new (misc) achievement paths isn't order-dependant. So it shouldn't be a problem to convert some of class paths to be like that... if that's what they want anyway.
If people could basically do the easier/more convenient things without first doing the harder/more troublesome ones first, that'd mean people would get achievements quicker overall. This would mean people go up in levels quicker, and then perhaps get stuck because they're left with the annoying ones. This doesn't really seem like an improvement to me. At least now you can tell by someone's level that they've put some time into it, which is more likely to correlate to an improvement in skill than if they had just rushed through the achievements they could...

Sorry, I can not say I agree with you there. All the "time into it" you mentioned was just a person's effort of grinding the achievements. It does not really reflect well how that person can play the game normally. We'd be much better off with a ranking system that does not require a person to grind achievements to really get anywhere.

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2013, 01:51:36 pm »
Here is semi obvious idea. Why not let achievements just be achievements (like in other games) and have the cosmetic awards be the only thing given for doing them? Is it too late to have ranks be awarded in some other fashion? One that better depicts how experienced or skilled a person is rather than how willing they are to grind achievements?

Offline ATeddyBear

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2013, 02:49:57 pm »
I had a much longer post typed up, but you guys beat me to it. So no reason to stomp over the same points. One thing from it I would like to add.

Contrived? "having an unnatural or false appearance or quality."

This was in regards to it being a "requirement", not that your issue with the system was artificial. I could use a different word such as hyperbole, dramatic, etc. But I thought "contrived" would be a better use as it isn't as nasty as some other words. I apologize if you took a personal offense to it.

Now onto where you guys are in the conversation.

Quote from: SilentHaven
Why not let achievements just be achievements (like in other games) and have the cosmetic awards be the only thing given for doing them? Is it too late to have ranks be awarded in some other fashion? One that better depicts how experienced or skilled a person is rather than how willing they are to grind achievements?

I whole heartily agree and this was kind of the point I was getting at. The achievement system is fine, the ranks and how people use and view them are the issue. They have no weight to them. A new ranking system that would take in matches played, win/loses, time played on a class, etc to give a similar aggregate rank would be far more accurate. Designing and implementing a system like this would most likely be more time than it’s worth. Especially in the grand scheme of things at the moment with Adventure mode and maintaining Skirmish mode. However nothing is saying it’s out of the question until we hear from a Dev.

Offline Zeluk

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2013, 09:25:23 pm »
I also agree that the current system needs to be reviewed. I'm among the newer players coming in with th Kickstarter crowd and once I figured out how the leveling system worked I was a little put off. Frankly, the achievments and leveling system aren't going to keep me from having my fun. I'm still going to utilize my free time in the most efficient way to maximize the entertainment value which in this case means disregarding the achievment system and not gaining levels. I have a lot of fun piloting Galleons and Junkers. I've tried the Goldfish, meh not for me. I'm not going to stop having fun just to progress down that achievement branch. But that means I'll gain levels at a snails pace. Now if the system could be changed where I could still gain levels to reflect my ability as a player (like many other games) and not how I spent my time pursuing tedious achievements that would increase the entertainment value for me.

So in conclusion I echo the others on this issue. A seperation of Achievements and Levels might be in order to make the game more fun for the average player.

Offline JaegerDelta

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2013, 02:47:50 am »
oh my.

Achievements and levels. Well, In a purely multiplayer game, with no gameplay unlocks, achievements and levels are merely little dopamine triggers designed to keep you playing.  I get that leveling up is important to alot of people playing, but really that number and title dont mean anything at all. Really "leveling up" in this game is community based. no matter what the number is next to your name, if you are a good, friendly, and helpful player the "top teir" players in the game start to want you playing in their games. (as great as the community is in this game, there is definitely a split between the "in crowd" and the masses, its fading away as more people play the game but its still there and is a fact of playing guns as of right now.)  That is how you really "level up" in this game, when the players recognize and respect your abilities in your preferred role(s).

As for actually doing the achievements, I am of the opinion that they are actually too easy, when you stumble across achievements they lose all meaning. they are not really part of the game, they are an extra. and maybe its just because i have played alot of rather brutal games, but i dont see the problem in working in the system set up. If making a number go up is important to you, then great complete the bonus missions available the best you can (despite my upper end levels, i have alot of achievements that i just havent worked on because it be fun for my crew or be helpful to do at the time, though i have been guilty of just saying fuck it and cheeve whoring #buffcheeves)

Making a number go up does not equal fun, that is just psychology keeping you hooked on a product. the fun in the game is the game.

Offline lyravega

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2013, 10:12:23 am »
The achievement system's purpose is to make sure you try different things. You don't like the Goldfish? You should try flying it more, it's a really fun ship. Without the achievement system, you might never bother. It helps you try out different guns, ammo types, tools, etc. That's really important in a game like this.

I'm sure having a fire extinguisher as a Gunner is fun for the whole crew. Need to try something different, right?

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2013, 10:14:04 am »
Just to point out something to the people who said this system is there to encourage people to broaden people's game play. I had 34 kills and 10 deaths using the spire. But now that I am using the goldfish because I am pretty much obligated to do so in order to get an achievement out of the way..I now have 34 deaths. People have said this was meant to have us explore new ships and new tactics..but so far all this has done is frustrate the heck out of me! I want to rank up and I want to get this achievement out of the way, but I have yet to kill a single ship using it. I just want to play with the ship I want without feeling that I will never reach higher ranks just because I can not manage to win with one ship. Or because I will never be able to destroy 20 components by ramming in one map >_> I mean really. Why are going through these headaches the trails we must do through to gain rank?

Please, I really want to hear from a dev on why they make people complete frustrating achievements to make progress in ranks. It is not fun to do and that completely defeats the point of playing a game.

(EDIT): I just wanted to also add that I feel sorry for the people who have to crew with me while I toil away at getting achievements. It can not be very fun for them either..but what choice do I have if I want progress?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 10:17:52 am by SilentHaven »