Author Topic: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?  (Read 3918 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« on: September 05, 2017, 09:35:46 pm »
This question came up in Discord.

Offline Corporal Ravioli

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2017, 05:28:56 am »
I don't understand why they would be removed. Maybe if anything is to be done, brighten them up just a tick to make it easier for less experienced players to remain effective.

Offline Psi Crow

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2017, 07:40:57 am »
don't remove them.
brighten up or remove some clouds from Ashen.
Maybe it's time to suggest some lighthouses with rotating spotlights again. ( but art, engine, blabla... I just think it'd look dope, dunno if possible but at least doesn't require new spotlight mechanics on ships)

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2017, 08:24:18 am »
The only issue I have with night maps so far is that maybe one of them (can't remember which, but the VERY dark one) is causing me some serious framerate issues.

Oh, also one of those maps have skybox that is so familiar to Kiln Of The Last Flame, From Software is preparing a pack of lawyers for copyright sakes.

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2017, 08:42:08 am »
Yes for removing bad maps from SCS roster, but no for anything else.

Offline Delorum

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 12:46:06 pm »
The goal is not to remove them permanently, it is to remove them *until* they can be made fun. Take them out of rotation and begin testing different lighting and other variants then put them back in once they're actually fun to play and not just inhibiting interesting game play. And yes they are inhibiting interesting gameplay, I have to tilt my monitor just to see in front of me so I don't ram into random jutting rocks. Long range is entirely impossible on night maps, you can only shoot the spotted box you can't aim for specific components. I think they should just be removed until this can be resolved. Not permanently though as I do like the idea of night maps. I just don't like our execution on implementing this idea.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 12:50:03 pm by Delorum »

Offline Corporal Ravioli

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 12:54:14 pm »
And yes they are inhibiting interesting gameplay

[...]

Long range is entirely impossible on night maps, you can only shoot the spotted box you can't aim for specific components.

But to me this /is/ interesting gameplay. I'd also like to slap a few quotation marks around "entirely impossible."

Offline Delorum

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 03:21:57 pm »
And yes they are inhibiting interesting gameplay

[...]

Long range is entirely impossible on night maps, you can only shoot the spotted box you can't aim for specific components.

But to me this /is/ interesting gameplay. I'd also like to slap a few quotation marks around "entirely impossible."


You think limiting gameplay options is interesting gameplay?

Offline Urz

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 04:13:59 pm »
Reposting from chat
Quote
[7:02 PM] Urz: it's not a cool looking nighttime. it just makes the game look like a black smudge.
[7:03 PM] Urz: and it's not fun to play in the dark, it turns out
[7:08 PM] Urz: they need to be brighter and have more individual lighting effects. the ships should probably be lit up to be visible at the max render distance
[7:08 PM] Urz: which of course costs developer time and adds an additional performance cost
[7:08 PM] Urz: so the right answer is probably just to remove them from the game

Currently requiring me to jack up my monitor brightness every time (Night) rolls around, which is annoying.

Players with lower quality monitors/laptops are more heavily impacted, which makes night maps unfair.

Offline Corporal Ravioli

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2017, 08:49:39 am »
You think limiting gameplay options is interesting gameplay?

Absolutely. Limitation is a breeding ground for variety and creativity.

For example, the treacherous landscape of the city maps provide a more topologically intricate landscape than dunes, and thus promotes a different style of gameplay that is only possible there.

Ashen King presents a HUGE limitation in that you can only approach the control point from two highly specific angles, forcing players to rethink how they defend and capture the objective.

Visibility is a variable, just like topology is. I don't see the point in complaining that you can't snipe as effectively, when you can easily embrace it as an element of gameplay and strategy. It has an air of entitlement to expect to be able to perform the same exact actions on every map. To me, it is also /boring/.

I believe the night maps need tweaking to reach their full potential, especially where computer hardware is concerned, but I'm not about to ask for their removal because they're different or /difficult/. That's counter-progressive.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 09:20:45 am by Corporal Ravioli »

Offline Delorum

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2017, 09:25:05 am »
You think limiting gameplay options is interesting gameplay?

Absolutely. Limitation is a breeding ground for variety and creativity.

For example, the treacherous landscape of the city maps provide a more topologically intricate landscape than dunes, and thus promotes a different style of gameplay that is only possible there.

Ashen King presents a HUGE limitation in that you can only approach the control point from two highly specific angles, forcing players to rethink how they defend and capture the objective.

Visibility is a variable, just like topology is. I don't see the point in complaining that you can't snipe as effectively when you can easily embrace it as an element of gameplay and strategy. It has an air of entitlement to expect to be able to perform the same exact actions on every map. To me, it is also /boring/.

I believe the night maps need tweaking to reach their full potential, especially where computer hardware is concerned, but I'm not about to ask for their removal because they're different or /difficult/. That's counter-progressive.

I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one. I don't think this encourages creativity. I think it's strictly limiting and unfun. I want night maps removed until they can be made fun. Like urz mentioned they look like a smudge on your screen and its no fun to play in the dark, I have to turn my monitor brightness all the way up just to find the damn help, Lueosi even had to make a second monitor profile to adjust color so he can see in front of him when he's playing night maps.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2017, 01:34:08 pm »
I didn't realize people had issues with them.

My issue with night maps is that they are not dark enough on my monitor.

I can see far just like any other map. As long as the boat is in render distance I can see it.

If its the case that we all have varying brightness then yea, it might need to be adjusted somehow.

Offline Rareform K. Rozhkov

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2017, 07:18:16 pm »
Players with lower quality monitors/laptops are more heavily impacted, which makes night maps unfair.
Players with shittier internet get more ping, that makes multiplayer play unfair. Plz remove multiplayer.
Players with shittier computers have more lag making the game unfair. Remove medium and high graphics settings
Players with shittier headphones get worse audio maaking it harder to hear enemy ships moving, making the game unfair. Plz remove sound.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2017, 09:41:43 pm »
Players with lower quality monitors/laptops are more heavily impacted, which makes night maps unfair.
Players with shittier internet get more ping, that makes multiplayer play unfair. Plz remove multiplayer.
Players with shittier computers have more lag making the game unfair. Remove medium and high graphics settings
Players with shittier headphones get worse audio maaking it harder to hear enemy ships moving, making the game unfair. Plz remove sound.

No...

1. Devs usually favor low ping players with their netcode. Like GOI. Games that benefit high ping (peeker's advantage) try their best to reduce it, and otherwise you don't have to play. Bad netcode games usually aren't successful because bad netcode isn't fun

2. The only times graphics settings are reduced are when there's no impact to visuals. For example, reducing unnecessarily high tessellation or polygons. "Optimizing" often takes this form and yet players don't complain. Devs often don't mention reduced values to avoid a negative placebo effect. I'm unaware of any game that removed higher graphics settings. Care to elaborate?

3. Again, I'm unaware of any game that sacrificed audio quality...for no reason at all? The opposite happens - sound and tracking get better

4. (bonus) You should've mentioned framerate limiting to prove your shitty point, not that I can recall any recent example (i.e. the game artificially locks framerate independent of game engine limitation and cannot be changed by the player)

On the other hand, it's common for devs to reduce darkness or change lighting effects based on player feedback

On my gaming monitor I turn on my Black eQualizer profile with a press of a button and see everything perfectly. On my integrated graphics PC with a (good) ASUS MB169C+ monitor it's too dark. Seems like a common complaint. Obviously it's better to fix rather than remove content, but I'm fine with removing the maps until a fix. I don't find it fair to subject players to blindness based on their monitor. Plus my crew perform better in the light. Win win
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 10:05:03 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Rareform K. Rozhkov

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Re: PvP night maps. Remove or leave?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2017, 10:04:07 pm »
netcode tesselation of polygonal tracking with eQualizer
Bro, all im trying to say is my mouse is broken and so this game isn't fair, because arrow keys are hard to use. Mouse functionality should be removed

Edit: also i though u quit after u wrote a thing about quitting whadda hek, jokes on me i guess
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 10:06:01 pm by Captain Slork Glork »