Author Topic: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll  (Read 1064 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« on: August 04, 2017, 11:26:51 am »
This is a change being discussed for ease of use and possibly frustration reduction.



There are two options being discussed.

1. Visual change only. This is a gentle nudge telling players what classes are recommended, with the exception of the Captain slot which will still auto-switch players to pilot like it does now.

2. Apply Captain logic to slot 3 and 4 for Engineer default. This would auto-switch players to Engineer. It is a 'soft' change, like the pilot slot, allowing players to switch back to gunner after they have been switched to engineer. Slot 2 would have no auto-switch logic other than a pilot joining auto-switching to engineer.

These changes do not (yet) extend into running matches, since you can join a running match as a gunner or engineer pilot. I need to confirm with the programmers if it would be easily possible to apply the pilot trying to join slots 2, 3, and 4 to gunner, so a second gunner could never join a running match in slots 3 and 4. That is another topic, however.


The main concerns are if the text is changed, but no logic (option 1), this would be confusing to players. It would be just as easy to join as a second gunner. The concern with option 2 is that it might annoy players.

Offline Corporal Ravioli

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2017, 04:15:55 pm »
I think this is a step in the correct direction.

I can see it being confusing to bind the roles to the actual slots themselves. If an engineer is sitting in the first crew slot, can any of the other crew members even change to gunner? What about if the captain recommends two crewmates loadouts that would have them trading gunner/engineer roles - does it switch their slot position as well?

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 04:25:14 pm »
I read it a bit hasty, but you know what would be a good idea? To make it default, yes, BUT to give players a choice to DISABLE it when they make a custom lobby or whatever. Because there might be people who would go 'DUUUURRRRR LET'S GO ALL GUNNERS FOR SHIT AND GIGGLES'.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2017, 04:41:36 pm »
I like the visual change, as it does what is already done when you've only got a half-crew, but it doesn't take it to the point of pure annoyance.

Certainly, people may still join as a second gunner, but going with the second option I feel would take a lot of control away from the players joining. In some cases, this is a good thing, but it could also lead to a lot more half-crewed ships. Certainly could be confusing, but once people got used to it, it'd most likely be fine.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 07:05:30 pm »
Note: YES, people could still fill their ship with gunners for luls. The slot 1 logic would just be applied to slots 3 and 4, but autoswitch to ENGINEER instead of PILOT. As we all know, you can easily switch your pilot to Gunner or Engineer once you have that spot. This would be no different. This is how it plays out:

1. Click slot 3 or 4.
2. You automatically become an engineer.
3. Pilot says "Hey, lets do a silly build. Everyone go gunner."
4. You click gunner.
5. You become gunner.
6. profit.

Nothing stops a player from switching to gunner. The only change is that they become an engineer when first clicking that slot. I am told this might apply to matchmaker as well, so if there are too many gunners in queue, it will put them in slot 3 and 4 and automatically switch them to engineer (they can still swtich back). Joining on friends and through the match list would also autoswitch for 1 (pilot), and 3-4 (engineer).

It is NOT a lock, however. The only class lock is not allowing pilots out of slot 1.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 10:16:11 pm »
Yes, but instead of blocking gunners from joining mid-match in slot 2 or 3, lock them to engineer if there's already a gunner aboard. Locking out gunners from joining mid-match on a ship with no gunners would frustrate players. A common belief is that ships need gunners, and they may blame their loss on not having a gunner. Alternatively, there could be an option for custom lobbies as a checkbox to "lock crew positions" so captains are pilots and there's only one gunner

Most important to me is the ability to change class mid match. This is an essential feature that was disabled two years ago (and the subject of my first forum post). There have been various workarounds, and I'm told every six months by Muse that a plan is in the works, but in the meantime I have to tell every extra gunner to leave. I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not the current workaround works, but I don't remember any recent example of it working for newer players (and they try). Thankfully, they almost always leave and don't get to play :(

There's no reason to block class changing and require a secret workaround. IF there was a reason to abuse class switching, which there's not, those players already know the workaround and would be using it! >:(

I've never heard a single instance of abuse in 3k hours, and that was the sole reason given for blocking it... Meanwhile, players are regularly frustrated by joining as the wrong class and being unable to swap :'(
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 10:25:01 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 10:44:20 pm »
This is not about joining running matches. That is different function that would not be effected by this.

Currently, you are only blocked from joining 2,3,4 midmatch as pilot. I can ask if that logic can be applied to gunners for slots 3 and 4. There is no support for checking to see if there are any gunners already in a running match.

If you try to join a running match, and there is no gunner and an engie in slot 2, there is a pretty good chance that the pilot did not want a gunner. Maybe it would be a bit frustrating to adapt, but with new labels, players will automatically gravitate to taking the lower two slots as engies. If a pilot does not want a gunner, they will just put an engie in 2, and leave 3 and 4 as AI. No more surprise gunners.

Offline TruWolf

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 02:30:42 am »
Yes, but instead of blocking gunners from joining mid-match in slot 2 or 3, lock them to engineer if there's already a gunner aboard. Locking out gunners from joining mid-match on a ship with no gunners would frustrate players. A common belief is that ships need gunners, and they may blame their loss on not having a gunner. Alternatively, there could be an option for custom lobbies as a checkbox to "lock crew positions" so captains are pilots and there's only one gunner

Most important to me is the ability to change class mid match. This is an essential feature that was disabled two years ago (and the subject of my first forum post). There have been various workarounds, and I'm told every six months by Muse that a plan is in the works, but in the meantime I have to tell every extra gunner to leave. I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not the current workaround works, but I don't remember any recent example of it working for newer players (and they try). Thankfully, they almost always leave and don't get to play :(

There's no reason to block class changing and require a secret workaround. IF there was a reason to abuse class switching, which there's not, those players already know the workaround and would be using it! >:(

I've never heard a single instance of abuse in 3k hours, and that was the sole reason given for blocking it... Meanwhile, players are regularly frustrated by joining as the wrong class and being unable to swap :'(

The current work-around is:
-Leave running match
-Make a practice lobby or crew form
-Change class within the practice lobby/crew form
-Rejoin through friends/clan/recents list
While it is a somewhat convoluted work-around I've definitely been able to consistently explain it to mid-match joiners and have them change class.

Biggest problem with any slot-based system is simply that often you don't really want the gunner in the second slot. You want the person most capable of taking the helm in the second slot, because captaincy is passed down to the second slot if the pilot dcs. I probably weigh this a lot more than others because I dc a lot but it's still a factor. If the captain dies then you generally want the gunner to keep shooting.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 06:26:26 am »
Note: YES, people could still fill their ship with gunners for luls. The slot 1 logic would just be applied to slots 3 and 4, but autoswitch to ENGINEER instead of PILOT. As we all know, you can easily switch your pilot to Gunner or Engineer once you have that spot. This would be no different. This is how it plays out:

1. Click slot 3 or 4.
2. You automatically become an engineer.
3. Pilot says "Hey, lets do a silly build. Everyone go gunner."
4. You click gunner.
5. You become gunner.
6. profit.

Nothing stops a player from switching to gunner. The only change is that they become an engineer when first clicking that slot. I am told this might apply to matchmaker as well, so if there are too many gunners in queue, it will put them in slot 3 and 4 and automatically switch them to engineer (they can still swtich back). Joining on friends and through the match list would also autoswitch for 1 (pilot), and 3-4 (engineer).

It is NOT a lock, however. The only class lock is not allowing pilots out of slot 1.

I like this and only switch to engineer upon joining if there is already a gunner, if there is no gunner then gunner can join as gunner.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 11:52:17 am »
On slot 2 becoming captain, this issue is easily solved in the lobby if you don't want a gunner to become captain. Since everyone can still switch, shift your best pilot to slot 2 as whatever class you want. I don't see it as much of an issue, though, since the only thing you really gain control of as a slot 2 captain is AI control. I have piloted from all 3 slots on pilot loss, and it is generally not an issue. Well, not more than losing the pilot in the first place and having no tools to throw the ship around.

Maybe a better option on captain loss is just give everyone captain abilities.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2017, 01:56:16 pm »
Conversation with other players has brought up the possibility of bringing back the ability to be a pilot in all slots. Rather than locking pilots out of slots 2-4, they would just be autoswitched, but have the ability to re-select pilot. The logic would be as follows.

Slot 1.
Gunner/Engineer -> Pilot

Slot 2.
Pilot -> Engineer

Slot 3.
Gunner/Pilot -> Engineer

Slot 4.
Gunner/Pilot -> Engineer


This might have a dramatic effect in Alliance. All pilots, all drift, all the time. Scary.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Autoswtich lobby slots. Dev discussion and poll
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 05:25:49 pm »
This is now ready to test in devapp.