Author Topic: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.  (Read 13408 times)

Offline Kestril

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2017, 01:34:11 am »

Have two identical ships at a set distance fire opposite greased at each other while aiming at the same point and swapping ammos each round. Screenshot armor and repeat until results are consistent. Retest at more ranges and with other ships

If this kind of test is too difficult or time consuming then don't test at all! Without testing you end up with biased results like "the 33% larger radius was unnoticeable". Inaccurate tests yield false results... and lead to +90% jitter :'(

Except, we did those sorts of tests with practice dummies to get the range/spread/damage down. +33% was unnoticeable.

But even then, such a test wouldn't be that valuable, as the game is not played with two stationary ships only firing one gun while aiming at the same point at each other. Such a controlled test doesn't really hold up because it does not emulate in-game conditions.  in an in-game battle conditions, +33% jitter was unnoticed by all testers.

If you want to test, then get in the testing group and test. Then offer feedback on the tests. Don't decry the changes after they've gone in.  Greased gat beats out greased hades at eyeball-to-eyeball range. Charged gat roughtly matches greased hades at mid-range.  Different ammos for different situations on different guns. It's disingenuous to expect the gatling, a close-range gun, to perform the same as the hades, a mid-range gun in all situations.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2017, 10:57:27 am »
I'm intrigued! So you tested greased vs greased+ against target dummies and counted the shots/time to break armor? What were the results? And like I said, that's the minimum necessary test to get a baseline of performance. You should absolutely try more tests at different speeds and even simulate combat. Gotta say though, I've witnessed Dev App combat tests in the past and was not impressed. They're only accurate when everyone has rules how to shoot and repair, otherwise they're...not accurate. A simple mistake can mean a 30% difference in time to break armor

Unfortunately I'm often not available Saturday to assist, and if I was I'm not sure how much help I could be. When I participated in the past it was more of a free-for-all and I didn't find it useful. If I was around last time I'd swear to you guys that I could actually tell the difference between between a 78% larger circle, and that answer would be be no more useful than "unnoticeable"

The issue is "unnoticeable". What does that mean? Does it mean less than 10% DPS/C (or DPC) difference? Because I roughly estimate (using the the "eye" method) greased+ at 300m deals ~+ -20% DPS/C when aiming at a straight-ahead Pyra. The jitter area is a whopping 78% larger...

Hmmm... if only there were numbers....
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 11:24:45 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2017, 11:38:59 am »
Unnoticeable, as not much change in value at most ranges while in combat.

If you want exact values, here ya go.



I see no issues here. Greased is behaving exactly as expected.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 11:40:49 am by Richard LeMoon »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2017, 12:50:30 pm »
Thanks Richard, so we see 36% of shots missed with regular ammo at 300m, which roughly equated to greased at 165m. The actual values are 300m regular = 157m greased, so this real-world test is very close (and luckily near the exact breaking point!). With greased+30% that would be 224m, which is 38% less than max range. This example isn't the whole story of course because the opponent is repairing and greased deals 1039 armor damage per clip (Galleon is 800 armor). This particular test would be closer to that of a Spire in combat (armor = 400 + mallet)

Greased90 reduces range in this scenario by 48% and Greased30 by 25%. The downside of +90% of course is all the side effects (and lack thereof). A light carro at 200m (77% max range) is reduced to just 103m. Other powerful guns, Hades and LJ, are unaffected

I'm happy to reduce Greased effectiveness by 1/4 or even 1/3 but not by 1/2. If 25% is unnoticeable then why was greased overpowered? If 25% is unnoticeable then the 15% of greased was nothing to worry about in the first place!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 01:00:41 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Kestril

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2017, 03:44:58 pm »
I'm happy to reduce Greased effectiveness by 1/4 or even 1/3 but not by 1/2. If 25% is unnoticeable then why was greased overpowered? If 25% is unnoticeable then the 15% of greased was nothing to worry about in the first place!

This issue isn't OPness strictly by the numbers, the issue is greased was OP enough to overshadow other ammos on nearly all guns.  Greased was the omni-ammo to use at medium and close range. Making its role more distinct (crazy dps at very close range) allows other ammo, such as heavy or charged, to become viable options at mid range.  Also, it's worth pointing out, that while greased is less effective at medium range, it is more effective at close range.

You do have a point about the hades an it's interaction with greased. In testing I was of the opinion for some mechanism to add jitter, but due to technical barriers with the code and the high-skill-floor of the hades and lumberjack, adding jitter at the time would make those guns very frustrating to use. From what I understood, those guns have to have a base jitter value for greased to apply, and adding a jitter value would make them terribly inaccurate at long range and cut the skill factor immensely. But, before we can start re-balancing those powerful guns we need to get the ammos balanced into distinct roles too.


Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2017, 05:23:28 pm »

Have two identical ships at a set distance fire opposite greased at each other while aiming at the same point and swapping ammos each round. Screenshot armor and repeat until results are consistent. Retest at more ranges and with other ships



we did those sorts of tests with practice dummies to get the range/spread/damage down. +33% was unnoticeable.

 the game is not played with two stationary ships only firing one gun while aiming at the same point at each other.  in an in-game battle conditions, +33% jitter was unnoticed by all testers.
 

Also +1

Its called controlled and field tests. Need both.

Offline Long Max

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2017, 07:06:57 am »
Just want remind, month pass, still no any move to limit use greased rounds in hades/lumberjack.
And remember one thing, this "OP" greased gatling/banshee was most novice friendly built. Level 1 gunner without basic training join your ship, with shit rounds set, mallet and rangefinder, you give him engeneer loadout with only greased to prevent random rounds using, say him stay here, fix your gun and what around it, try to shoot enemy, not ally. And it work, a many times, but never looks any OP for me.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2017, 07:45:27 am »
This was never about Greased being OP. It was about Greased being ONLY. Gatling is perfectly fine with just standard rounds. Greased far overshadowed all the other rounds, making it a one ammo gun. There was rarely any reason to bring anything else. Greased was standard ammo. Load it in and forget about it.

It is not standard ammo in Hades and Lumberjack. Normal also plays its part, along with several other ammos. They have a meta set of ammo, instead of just one meta ammo.

I hope that explains the change.

Offline Long Max

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2017, 09:31:33 am »
This exclusively using only in your mind. Players use different rounds for gatling for different situation. Lesmok gatling on side of 4-hwacha galleon, for shoot shiр which will not charge for you. Lesmok gatling on fore of minotaur spire, when you try to keep enemy on distance in any price. Double lesmok gatlings for heavy flak spire, same for mortar-double gatlings mobula. Some strange people prefer use heavy for break junker armor many time before, can't agree with it, but still. A little less strange like snipe guns with heavy, not you invented it in the one of last patch, it was exist before. A gunner for gatling gun on gat\artemys and gat\banshee pyramidion with full rounds complect, i am personally preferred this. Oh and of course lochnagar gatling, what a lot of time which has long been trying to balance in dev aps right now, if it not exist why do something with it. "Load it in and forget about it" - again no, smart people always know when switch for normal rounds to have possibility shoot far then 360 m. Do we play different games? If players prefer greased for brawler build or counter brawler build it only choice, do you need explain why they do this? 
Now charged can partially take the place of lesmok on gatling, it good. Break greased if people take it too much not.
BlackenedPies say  a lot here to show what happens in frontal attack hades vs. greased.If greased have problem with too much dps at all, let's solve it for all gun.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2017, 11:01:40 am »
This was never about Greased being OP. It was about Greased being ONLY. Gatling is perfectly fine with just standard rounds. Greased far overshadowed all the other rounds, making it a one ammo gun. There was rarely any reason to bring anything else. Greased was standard ammo. Load it in and forget about it.

It is not standard ammo in Hades and Lumberjack. Normal also plays its part, along with several other ammos. They have a meta set of ammo, instead of just one meta ammo.

Greased is the standard ammo in Hades and Lumber at closer than lesmok range. I believe I've seen you, Richard, use greased exclusively for Engi Hades on Junker, Mobula, and Pyra. Likewise, you don't bring greased for Gat if you plan on mostly engaging at further ranges. Closing range with high DPS guns often isn't difficult, and the effective range of greased helps facilitate this

-20% range for +15% DPS is a great tradeoff

Being a standard ammo isn't reason to change it. Ammos all have a standard use depending on gun function (scatter = heavy, low clip = charged etc.). Greased is ubiquitous because it's powerful without drawback for many guns because these guns function similarly (and are simpler to design). In addition, it has the added benefit of reducing arm range which opens up its use to more guns. It's effective range is too far, and that's a good reason to change it, but +90% jitter does more harm than good
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 11:16:28 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Naoura

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2017, 11:32:14 am »
Honestly? Just have two ammo types.

Split the new Greased and bring back a modified old Greased, the same suggestion that was made for Old Loch and New Loch.

Give Greased a slower projectile speed and reduce it's range for a lesser negative to damage, and make a new ammo with the 90% jitter and a massive fire rate.

It covers both sides, an ammo for extreme close range and a monster DPS, and a mid-range replacement for somewhat higher DPS, but for a less efficient shooting experience.

Honestly, that would help Gunners  a bit, giving them even more to choose from.

Offline Dementio

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2017, 12:07:44 pm »
I personally often recommend Heatsink and Lochnagar over Greased for my gunners on Hades and Lumberjack. Rarely do I need Greased on any of my guns. I had it sometimes for the Gatling though, especially if the gunner had to use Hades and Gatling on the same ship.

I would personally say that Greased Gat's range was a bit too forgiving for the gains it had, but I hadn't tested current Greased Gat too much so I wouldn't know if the jitter increase was too big. Carronades always had trouble with jitter and if you don't bring Heavy or Inc in special cases then you might as well not bring the Carronade at all. Greased Banshee used to be able to still hit relatively easily at its maximum range, so I am not against Greased increasing jitter. Is it too much jitter? For some guns it is, for some guns it isn't. Change jitter on Greased to 50% or change jitter on guns? +50% jitter on a gun with 2 deg jitter is a total of 3 deg of jitter, is that a lot? Does it make a significant difference? I don't mind seeing it in dev app after the upcoming patch.

I personally haven't seen most people complaining about the changes here in the dev app testing sessions, so I don't think arguing against the testing process is justified. Constructive feedback to help it get better I won't argue against, but don't be against it unless you tested the testing process. In my opinion, what we got here is also better than what the Muse developers themselves have given us.

I am a bit biased towards the current testing process, because I have seen this game sit in a state of "Why are the devs doing what they are doing?" "Are they listening to feedback?" "Does Eric play the game?" for a solid 4 years now. How long did it take for the Mobula to be nerfed? Remember the seemingly out of nowhere Spire nerf? Pyramidion is still suffering from its first nerf a few years back. Had it not been for the testing sessions, then the Heavy Carronade would still have no arc in any direction and Heavy Clip would very likely still be worthless on all guns. The current way of getting changes into the game feels much more active and much less random despite the lack of professional testers, which one could argue Muse should provide.

Got objections to changes in dev app? Voice them, there is a dev app section on the forum, you have the trello, you have Discord for more active discussions, email and even surveys for each test session are being set-up for more organizsed feedback gathering.
Want changes brought in to dev app like for example testing +50% jitter increase on Greased isntead of +90%? Voice them?

Offline Long Max

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2017, 03:04:36 pm »
Let me say how i remember this month(MONTH!) of testing. Some veterans full crew keep stacking all time on magnate with lubmber\hades\artemis\hwacha\gat\banshee, making all lobby dance around it, most time without full crew and well, in general, you understand. Do then found magnate need much low turning speed and speed what testing now (or not more testing by this crew). Not, i think the found they good in shooting long range meta. The second most popular was laser fight, ok at least here we don't pass completely unbalance thing in main game. I even remember stacking team full crew meta mobula + meta galleon against gat-flak junker on dunes, with a predictable result, i thing we found from this match artemis still work good with 4 burst rounds in clip. Oh, i almost forgot one match 1 vs 1 gat-mortar pyra  both side for teasting new greased, we found it still able kill each other very quick.
Do i say in testing lobby it greased rounds change is bullshit. Wrote this in the questionnaire. Yes. All time i hear answer from Richard its meta, its OP, its must be nerf.

Offline Dementio

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2017, 03:59:44 pm »
Players choosing bad stuff to test with and against is a problem with the players. During the testing for the H. Carronade buff people brought almost only Blenderfish, and who would have guessed, the second fastest ship with a heavy gun on the front was almost unchanged by the Heavy Carronade buff, because the ship was fast enough to make up for the gun's weaknesses.

I am not happy either about people bringing bad stuff for the tests or that we don't have enough interested vet players able to play during testing sessions to make for well balanced lobbies. We could complain to the developers for not joining the tests at all and help us play with the stuff, but I think we all know that they would send maybe one Muse person, aside from Inkjet who already organizes half of the testing, that would just sit in spectator mode and barely says anything, at best.

We can only try as a community to make the tests as accurate as possible. If there is a guy or stack screwing up the results, well, that's why we have multiple days and weeks of testing.

It would be interesting though to see the final results of the surveys of how many voted for and against a change in dev app, anonymously of course.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: The Meta is dead, long live the Meta.
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2017, 05:19:06 pm »
I think you are remembering wrong, Long Max. I don't believe I ever said Greased was OP. Meta and overused, yes. This is the same thing most of the testers said. If you were around when +jitter was first suggested, you would remember I was vehemently against it.

final week of Greased testing.


I will look into a better way of allowing access to the data without giving away anonymity. We collect names for the items so it shows up to anyone that has access. One of the two 'weak' responses said it was weak, but in a good way.