Author Topic: Gunner focused ammo types  (Read 18095 times)

Offline Daft Loon

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Gunner focused ammo types
« on: February 03, 2017, 08:07:13 pm »
A possible alternate approach to giving the gunner class something more to recommend it - creating/modifying more ammo types that work better with a gunner using them.

Currently we have lochnagar which suits being used mostly by gunner for 3 reasons - It needs gunner stamina to turn it well, It benefits from full time attention to the gun, and it doesn't really get much out of the buff hammer.

Could some other ammo types follow that kind of theme, either by copying the same things or being better for gunner use in other ways?

Incendiary seems like a good candidate given its currently barely used, but it doesn't seem suited to just copying the loch downsides but replacing the extra damage with even more fires.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2017, 10:25:24 pm »
Wouldn't mind that in the slightest. I do think that Incen needs some kind of boost... or at least something to make it more useful. Incen on Gat or so is a complete waste, and incen on a flamer is kind of just overkill...

I did make a case for Acid based damage, which might be applicable. Mind taking a look at it, see if it works? https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,8282.msg134566.html#msg134566

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2017, 12:08:52 am »
give gatling heavy carronade arcs, gunner now mandatory on gat


People have been telling me that lochnagar gat does benefit from buff hammer. The more insane the DPS is, the more benefit. It's a percentage buff.

Gunner is a niche class that you can't run more than one of because having a gunner is so detrimental to your survival and potential output. The only time I really want the ammo cart with legs anymore is when I have guns that benefit significantly from increased turning arcs, meaning heavy guns and merc. I'm not even sure if lesmok gat on metamidion is worthwhile over a buff engie if you have a good crew. Good players are already at a point where they can use Hades without lesmok, so the only ammo they need in it is greased. Nothing else compares. Previously I thought gunner was worthwhile in spite of that because of the various different ranged ammos, but now I think of that as a nice bonus when I need to have one for turning arcs.

It's part of why I worry about the philosophy of "make all ammos balanced compared to normal", and wanted buffs to other ammo types that were underperforming rather than nerfs to the top ammo types. The fact there's a close-range pub meta together with greased being above the power curve of the other ammos, basically meaning you only need greased to keep up with other ship loadouts, is why gunner is seen as so pointless to have. None of the other ammos hold a candle to greased within its range, why would you ever sacrifice an extra buff hammer or spanner-mallet for a weak alternative ammo?

With the current trend of making everything comparable to normal, what I fear will happen is that no ammo will be above the power level of normal, so people just use normal. Engineers can already take one niche ammo with them, if normal is the top of the power curve then they'll forgo having more niche ammos in favor of extra repair/buff power. Gunner would then be entirely put in the niche of "only bring for arcs" at the highest level of play, and even in just higher level pub crews.

On the other hand, if the ammos all have powerful niches that put them significantly above normal for their roles, and have uses that don't overlap, you see more reason to take multiple ammo types to capitalize on having more ranges of engagement and more versatile and multipurpose weapons. For example, heatsink and charged in Merc. One is for damage, the other for disable, so even without the benefit of arc manipulation it's worthwhile to take a gunner simply so they can switch from raw damage to having more disabling shots when you or they decide disabling is going to be what they focus on at that moment. And both are above the power level of normal in the Merc, but they're specialized in different directions.

The fact that this is one of the few examples of such an interaction is more interesting when you consider that both get disproportionate, unintended benefits compared to the listed stats on the ammos, which is what puts them both above the power level of normal on that gun.

Ammo type variety encourages use of a gunner when they are more powerful than the default and have specialized uses that make them significantly worthwhile to use over a generalist munition. It's why I wanted other ammos buffed as opposed to current potent ammos nerfed.

...

Also, incendiary has its places. In carronades it's the best ammo for harass and pressuring due to it actually starting lots of fires. In gats, incend gat is usable on goldfish sides due to timing of armor break with hwacha reload making raw DPS not necessary.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2017, 02:54:34 pm »
That is what I thought the goal was with the Greased tests, to push it way into the close range, high damage burst-fire category. Normal should be distinct in its role of the safe, steady, reliable damage. It is not, since Greased is much better at that role at all the important ranges.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2017, 08:22:01 pm »
Wouldn't mind that in the slightest. I do think that Incen needs some kind of boost... or at least something to make it more useful. Incen on Gat or so is a complete waste, and incen on a flamer is kind of just overkill...

I did make a case for Acid based damage, which might be applicable. Mind taking a look at it, see if it works? https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,8282.msg134566.html#msg134566

It could work but I'm not sure it would play out as a gunner ammo since it needs to be effecting the target before the main damage goes out.

People have been telling me that lochnagar gat does benefit from buff hammer. The more insane the DPS is, the more benefit. It's a percentage buff.

The percentages add, loch + buff goes from +125% damage for loch to +145% damage for buff-loch rather than 225% X 120% = 270% which would be significant.


The ammo variety/ deeper niches is one of the other ways to widen the use of gunner, this was more my half formed thoughts about having more ammo types that by themselves are better used by gunner.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2017, 09:47:05 pm »
Perhaps adding in ammunition types that are very, very situational, rather than general. For example, generally, faster firing is better, even if it means less damage.

Situationally, however, perhaps removing something like the secondary or the primary damage types to the weapon, in return for some significant buffs, would make bringinga gunner who would be dedicated for their weapon.

For example, say you had an ammo type that removed the secondary damage for a large boost to the primary damage. It comes at an increased cost of AoE, but say give it higher velocity and slower drop. On something like a Gatling, that would be lovely, since there is no reason at all to bring something that focuses on the burst damage, and would be just as situational as old Loch.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2017, 10:42:59 pm »
Ammos that removed/reduced primary or secondary were tested a couple years ago, along with other interesting things. Player feedback was meh, so they discontinued it. People don't seem to like the thought of ammo that only a gunner would realistically use.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2017, 11:27:44 pm »
Ammos that removed/reduced primary or secondary were tested a couple years ago, along with other interesting things. Player feedback was meh, so they discontinued it. People don't seem to like the thought of ammo that only a gunner would realistically use.

Which is rather odd considering lochnagar is generally quite popular.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2017, 10:37:26 am »
The ammos had potential, but needed refinement and a gradual unlocking process as players learned the game.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2017, 10:50:37 am »
Richard, that... kind of proves my point. "Ammunition only a gunner would realistically use".

I thought that's what this thread was about?

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2017, 02:44:11 pm »
It is. I am just saying it was tested in devapp. Injection clip, Proximity, Slugs, and Dragons Breath were all very situational ammo. I guess the reaction from most of the testers was not favorable, so that path was abandoned. People just did not like the thought of ammo that would not be good for engineers as well. Not my opinion. I want more specialized versions of current ammo.

Maybe it would work if ONLY a gunner could use them, locking out nub engies with useless ammo. Though, you will always have scrubs with Burst gat.

Offline SirNotlag

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2017, 03:36:26 pm »
It is. I am just saying it was tested in devapp. Injection clip, Proximity, Slugs, and Dragons Breath were all very situational ammo. I guess the reaction from most of the testers was not favorable, so that path was abandoned. People just did not like the thought of ammo that would not be good for engineers as well. Not my opinion. I want more specialized versions of current ammo.

Maybe it would work if ONLY a gunner could use them, locking out nub engies with useless ammo. Though, you will always have scrubs with Burst gat.

That is the only way i can think of it working, making ammos types incredible specialized and making it so only gunners can use them. I know that goes against the way Muse likes to have it done with every class able to take the tools of the others but it would certainly fix some problems in my eyes.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2017, 05:36:11 pm »
I would rather say that instead of making it so that only gunners COULD use them, make it so that only gunners SHOULD use them, or at least use them and be effective with them.

Many like to run triple engineer, with one gungineer able to take role of buff/ gunner. Giving only the gunner new ammunition types would make gunners practically a necessity, which I am against. Flexibility is always a plus.

Offline SirNotlag

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2017, 05:38:56 pm »
I would rather say that instead of making it so that only gunners COULD use them, make it so that only gunners SHOULD use them, or at least use them and be effective with them.

Many like to run triple engineer, with one gungineer able to take role of buff/ gunner. Giving only the gunner new ammunition types would make gunners practically a necessity, which I am against. Flexibility is always a plus.

Yeah I suppose it should be like with pilot tools. Yes anyone aside form the pilot can bring the tools such as tar or moonshine but they wont really be using it except in really rare circumstances.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Gunner focused ammo types
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2017, 05:41:12 pm »
Exactly. An engineer should only bring pheonix claw if the second engie is bringing Kero, or something similar.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a reason to bring triple engie/ gunner. Some new tool that would ask for a lot more in terms of balance.