Author Topic: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread  (Read 91633 times)

Offline The Djinn

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2016, 06:40:27 pm »
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).

Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.

Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2016, 06:57:36 pm »
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).

Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.

Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m

So essentially you want people to see rangefinder and take it so they can kill quicker? Not shooting down or arguing your idea, just asking for the purpose of my earlier question.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2016, 07:02:51 pm »
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).

Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.

Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m

So essentially you want people to see rangefinder and take it so they can kill quicker? Not shooting down or arguing your idea, just asking for the purpose of my earlier question.

Not necessarily. I want it to assist gunners (and perhaps pilots, for that matter) to do their job better, but not by reducing the skill involved in gunning, which I feel an aim-assist does.

Damage was just the first method of accomplishing this that came to mind. I'd gladly explore other options.

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2016, 07:11:29 pm »
That's fair. The reason I posed this question is because I see in this thread a lot of arguing that's going nowhere. I feel like a lot of people have their own ideas, and when someone else comes up with one it must be wrong because it's not theirs. I'm hoping that by making people break their thoughts down to as simple as "how should this affect gameplay," we can find some common ground and maybe go from there.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2016, 08:30:45 pm »
I'm going to post my thoughts (again).

I want rangefinder to display the range of the ship to everyone on the ship the same way brackets are displayed for a spyglass spot. The user should not have to remain zoomed in. Just click and do other things. The information of exact range is extremely useful. Why? Pressing M and counting squares takes time. The blips on the map are large (they take up roughly 100 meters). Using the map is not as accurate as a rangefinder.

Which guns are capable of utilizing the range finder? All of them. Each gun has a max range. That alone is useful for the captain to make decisions.

Which projectile guns benefit the most? Lumberjack, Hades, and to an extent the Mortar. These three guns have iron sights.

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2016, 08:43:53 pm »
I don't think people quite get the whole point of trying to find common ground. We're never going to get anywhere if we keep slapping our whole ideas into each other. The point is to find what we DO agree on and THEN move on to the details.

Offline Letus

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2016, 09:16:30 pm »

How is that going to work in practice? I find the idea of using rangefinder while mounted intriguing, but as for the rest, you think someone's going to go "oh they're at 768 meters and moving at 22 meters per second so I should move the gun half a centimeter to the left and one centimeter up?"
I'll admit, I'd rather have just the range, speed is just a matter of centimeters, but range is arc.
Quote

I should add again, though, that making the range-finder usable while on the gun itself is an interesting thought, that maybe we should apply to some of the other theories here to see how that changes things. Maybe even make it a gunner tool instead of a pilot one?


I still challenge people to try out the question I posed just above and see where that takes us.

Well here is a thought.
Perhaps if viewing through the range finder somehow thickened contrails, like...tracer rounds?

Or we can have that be the new gunner shot: tracer.  Don't know what its stats would be, should do vanilla speed...and thickens contrails..

granted you'd still have issues with really long distances needing Lesmok.

But if the Range Finder can see the trails easier, then not only can it well..find range, but also be used to relay much easier than looking at the tiny dot through the spyglass of wether you went over or under.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 09:18:20 pm by Letus »

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2016, 09:29:19 pm »
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.
Yes but they don't require someone to spot the target with a spyglass before hand..

spy glasses aren't used to place a tracer on an enemy ship either.

wrenches and spanners and mallet don't just fix by hitting things either.
How far do you want the rabbit hole to go?


Anything that lowers the given skill as is (which I see as the bare minimum where lower will be disgusting)

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2016, 09:11:08 am »
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot, BUT only the person holding and scoped in with the range-finder sees them. The person on the gun sees nothing but the usual.

Thus person holding the range-finder becomes the "spotter" telling the gunner where to shoot. This way we can facilitate communication and teamwork, and provide people on the guns with helpful information that can assist them in doing their job better without making things too easy for them. It also removes the worry that people might be bored "staring" at an enemy, since the spotter will (if they're doing their job) be watching moving shot indicators/tracers and relaying information the whole time. Over time as gunners get more used to landing shots from various distances, they will adjust to the point where they no longer need the spotter's guidance, and overall skill level will most likely improve, but even for experienced gunners, you could start adjusting to more extreme ranges, like 2km+ (I know I could use some more practice anyway).

Potentially, you could also add a crosshair of sorts to the range-finder with markings that correlate to the markings on the lumberjack and hades. (Though I'm not sure how that would work exactly, given the two different perspectives, but it's the start of an idea)

Of course, the range-finder could also tell the exact range still, otherwise the name wouldn't be relevant. Which would have the added bonus of also informing people when exactly their gun is in range. Whether or not the shot indicator the spotter sees should disappear at a shot's max range is something worth thinking about. I think it would be a benefit, as multiple cones for something like a carronade going off into oblivion cold somewhat obscure vision, and it would create a nice communication dynamic of "wait for it...wait for it...3..2..1..shoot!" However, making the range-finder too powerful has been a valid concern, so it's up for debate. Alternatively, we could use tracers. In this instance however I think shot-path wins out. Tracers you would only see AFTER the first shot, which if you're trying to optimize distance for that first shot, pretty much defeats the point, and telling the exact range is something range-finder does already, so only relying on that has been proven to be unnecessary. This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, mind you, what it would do is make range-finder mostly a sniping tool, which I'm okay with, but I'm doing my best to try to keep everybody's ideas in mind, and telling when guns are in range was a suggested feature that people seemed interested in.

One argument FOR tracers instead of shot-path, is that this idea is inspired by real world sniper spotters, who watch the path of their partner sniper's shot and tell them how to correct if they miss.

However I personally would argue against tracers overall, as most of the shots that you would need that kind of assistance with practically leave a tracer trail already.

I've tried to find a compromise that suits everyone, but if something's wrong with it, or you feel left out, or if I could've argued my idea better (that one feels like it's always the case), feel free to tear it the usual new one.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2016, 09:43:30 am »
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-

instant no.

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2016, 09:48:39 am »
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-

instant no.

I've tried so hard to keep everyone's thoughts in mind and keep this as reasonable and diplomatic a debate as I possibly can despite everything. Now I know you have a reputation to keep up, but you could try to not be an asshat for the maybe one minute it would take you to read the whole thing. Maybe you'll be surprised, maybe you won't. Who fuckin knows.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2016, 10:05:10 am »
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-

instant no.

I've tried so hard to keep everyone's thoughts in mind and keep this as reasonable and diplomatic a debate as I possibly can despite everything. Now I know you have a reputation to keep up, but you could try to not be an asshat for the maybe one minute it would take you to read the whole thing. Maybe you'll be surprised, maybe you won't. Who fuckin knows.

I wasn't surprised. Its you elaborating on an idea from the core concept (the above quoted text). And frankly I wasted my time reading the elaboration since it still uses said quoted text as the basis.

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2016, 10:14:42 am »
I wasn't surprised. Its you elaborating on an idea from the core concept (the above quoted text). And frankly I wasted my time reading the elaboration since it still uses said quoted text as the basis.

It's a compromise. An attempt to find a way to make everyone happy without sacrificing my own position completely. If you want this to proceed, you could tell why you don't agree, suggest a change in the idea, suggest a change of direction of thought, maybe even suggest your own idea. Honestly there are countless ways this discussion could go, but instead you decide to act like a bullheaded child. Do people actually take you seriously? At least I'm trying to stay diplomatic and peaceful and consider other people's thoughts. For instance, even YOURS. You thought it would be overpowered for the gunner to simply see the shot path? So I nerfed it by making them rely on another to tell them.

Or we could, you know, just shoot down each other's ideas without giving them a chance. That's how things get done.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2016, 02:48:27 pm »
Quote
Or we could, you know, just shoot down each other's ideas without giving them a chance. That's how things get done.
Quote
Shoot down each other's ideas.

Lol.

Anyways i agree with jazz. I do not like the idea of tracers because it seems bulky at best. As you said, all the guns that would need it already have tracers.

As far as showing a shot indicator / path i kinda like it. It would offer some extra communication and guarantee a first hit at the expense of some time.

My only objection is it would honestly make the guns OP. Lumberjack and hades are already very powerful if the shooter gets the beat on a ship in that first or second shot. Being able to spam their first volley would honestly break balance imo. It sucks as it is going against the top tier gunners and even they usually miss their first shot.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 02:54:28 pm by Solidusbucket »

Offline The Djinn

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2016, 03:18:06 pm »
Hm. What about a pilot tool usable whole on a gun (via an extra inventory button) that shows the range to target constantly (whenever on gun) and, when active, allows you to fire shots with whatever the guns current ammo is at 100% - 300% firing rate, but shows hit indicators and projectiles only to you and deals no damage.

Swapping to it wouldn't change the "actual" reload or firing rate of the gun.

So gunners could take it to figure out shot trajectory, firing test shots before switching back to actual ammo.

It's a bit weird, but it might work.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 03:32:29 pm by The Djinn »