Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: GeoRmr on February 24, 2016, 11:41:35 pm

Title: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on February 24, 2016, 11:41:35 pm
(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/gunsoficarusonline/images/4/4b/Rangefinder.png/revision/latest?cb=20151217190419)


Okay so it's been two years now and this tool is still more useless than the harpoon - I believe it's time we all try really hard and think of another passive tool related to ship spotting for muse to implement as the rangefinder.



My Suggestion:













Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Spud Nick on February 25, 2016, 01:03:34 am
I would like to see the range of the ship if it's spotted with the rangefinder. I like the suggestions that you have posted here. The spinning circle has always bugged me and everybody I have played with. The last suggestion about showing the status of the ships is not needed. Let the team see the range of the ship when spotted and remove the spinning circle. There could also be a time limit on the range spot. Requiring the user to re-spot the ship after 25 secs or so.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Atruejedi on February 25, 2016, 06:05:40 am
  • The spinning circles used to show someone on a gun how to aim are removed from the rangefinder, or at least an option is added for a player to disable them. There is nothing more annoying than shooting a gun when a novice on your ship starts rangefinding and the spinning circles start to block up your reticle.


I've honestly never understood exactly how these circles work anyway. I assume the smaller the circle, the more accurate? But that's never explained in the game... so yeah, either clarify it in-game or get rid of it.

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  • The rangefinder effect only works if the ship is first spotted by another player with a spyglass, and the range finder effect remains active until that ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover.


This. This this this. This makes it worthwhile. I'd gladly have 2 spyglasses and 1 rangefinder on my ship if it worked like this.

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  • The range finder is given the following limited spotting ability if used on an unspotted ship - ships are marked for a limited number of seconds visible only to players on the same ship (essentially the exact same functionality as the captains mark ability, but with its own distinct set of brackets around the targeted ship)


No. Because then you'll likely have more than 1 rangefinder per ship, and we don't want that. Give the rangefinder and the spyglasses to the crew mates you trust to use them responsibly. Don't dumb it down. Rangefinder should be a bonus for crews who are smart enough to use it.

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  • Once a ship is successfully marked by a rangefinder after already being spotted by a spyglass it displays the range of the ship in km from each ship on the spotting team as it does currently. This effect will remain active until the ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover and does not require constant spotting from the person using the rangefinder.


This would essentially make 1 rangefinder "spot" for the entire team. I don't like that. Imagine a 3 vs. 3 or a 4 vs. 4... one rangefinder can give all those players this info? "Overpowered." I like the one-per-ship idea.

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  • Once a ship is marked by the rangefinder after being spotted by a spyglass a variation of the ship status UI currently in spectator mode is displayed next to the spotted ship showing: it's hull health, component cool-downs, which components are disabled, which components are on fire, the number of fire stacks on burning components, which components are chem-sprayed, and which components are buffed.

Too much information. Unfair, in a way. Maybe just info on certain aspects.

My suggestion: I think the best quality the rangefinder could give players is this: once a rangefinder is "used" on an already-spotted enemy ship, any crew mate on the rangefinding ship who is mounting a gun receives some sort of notification when an enemy comes within their mounted gun's maximum range. It alerts the shooters when firing their guns will allow the bullets to reach the enemy vessel. No more firing gatlings or carronades early... rangefinder will tell you when to open fire! 8)
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on February 25, 2016, 06:14:56 am
I would like to see the range of the ship if it's spotted with the rangefinder. I like the suggestions that you have posted here. The spinning circle has always bugged me and everybody I have played with. The last suggestion about showing the status of the ships is not needed. Let the team see the range of the ship when spotted and remove the spinning circle. There could also be a time limit on the range spot. Requiring the user to re-spot the ship after 25 secs or so.

the only problem with this is - we already have a map which gives us detailed enough information about how to aim (e.g. lj long range) accurate numbers are no more effective than  looking at the map and rounding in 500 meters. Having range as the only feature does pretty much nothing and using range finder would only waste extra crews repair time to spot twice for 0 gain. Knowing the range of a ship I don't feel is powerful enough to require a crew member to spot it multiple times if the ship doesn't get in cover.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on February 25, 2016, 06:17:20 am
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This would essentially make 1 rangefinder "spot" for the entire team. I don't like that. Imagine a 3 vs. 3 or a 4 vs. 4... one rangefinder can give all those players this info? "Overpowered." I like the one-per-ship idea.

Did you read my footnote - what do you think?


My suggestion: I think the best quality the rangefinder could give players is this: once a rangefinder is "used" on an already-spotted enemy ship, any crew mate on the rangefinding ship who is mounting a gun receives some sort of notification when an enemy comes within their mounted gun's maximum range. It alerts the shooters when firing their guns will allow the bullets to reach the enemy vessel. No more firing gatlings or carronades early... rangefinder will tell you when to open fire! 8)


I like this idea, but it's already in the game (get ready for incoming secret about a stupid feature) - if you enable tutorial text the relevant components on enemy ships are hi-lighted and blink as soon as you get in range. Also I think that the range finder does this currently anyway with a x on the reticle.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on February 25, 2016, 06:41:01 am
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No. Because then you'll likely have more than 1 rangefinder per ship, and we don't want that. Give the rangefinder and the spyglasses to the crew mates you trust to use them responsibly. Don't dumb it down. Rangefinder should be a bonus for crews who are smart enough to use it.


I really don't see why this would make people take more than 1 rangefinder per ship. Also I don't see why that would be a bad thing if they did - what if the gunner was the only person with a spyglass and both engineers had range finders - the gunner is the person with the most free time to spot ships I think it would be pretty cool if people played like this.

Captains get this ability for free anyway, in the latest patch captain mark even shows where the ship is off screen with a floating arrow indicator! (OP OP) All it would do is let you point out the location of the ship to your own crew (teamwork required) for them to spot it which shows its location to the rest of the team (teamwork result). Note the ship will not appear on the map if you mark an unspotted ship with rangefinder, the ship will only be rangefinder marked for a few seconds, and it will not appear to the ally ship at all.

I don't think this would "dumb it down" (what great powerful advanced effect do you think the range finder brings, even with my suggested changes?) but only make it appealing to the crews that want to use it. I know for a fact my team would ignore the rangefinder if it left a crew member without the ability to mark a ship to other players on the team, no matter what information it showed about enemy ships. (this is the biggest reason it's bad to take a rangefinder currently!) Are we too dumb to use the range finder, or smart enough to realize it's crap if it takes away a crew members ability to spot at all?
Spotting position is just too important and not having it at all on one player is very bad - one player spotting a ship can have a serious effect on the outcome of the battle, just think how many times that one player on your team spotted that metamidion right behind you and saved your ass. (I can think of a veteran player who thinks spotting is so important that he would always take spyglass as pilot before they added the captain mark ability)

Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Kamoba on February 25, 2016, 07:13:31 am
*Thinks really hard, gets a headache, cries, bumps head, gets idea.*
Give range finder spyglass abilities so they would be the same tool for all intents and purposes just with a different mesh and skin.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 25, 2016, 08:12:07 am
Give range finder a type of captains mark. Once marked then range info is available if ship is spotted by spyglass.

Make range information available to the ship with rangefunder until spot from any spyglass is lost. This requires each ship to have their own rangefinder

This would make it viable. Only problem is now there are three types of bracket systems used to denote a marked ship

All good ideas. I think these are the best that you presented.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Atruejedi on February 25, 2016, 08:13:42 am
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This would essentially make 1 rangefinder "spot" for the entire team. I don't like that. Imagine a 3 vs. 3 or a 4 vs. 4... one rangefinder can give all those players this info? "Overpowered." I like the one-per-ship idea.
Did you read my footnote - what do you think?

Still against those footnotes as well. Too much info :-\

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I like this idea, but it's already in the game (get ready for incoming secret about a stupid feature) - if you enable tutorial text the relevant components on enemy ships are hi-lighted and blink as soon as you get in range. Also I think that the range finder does this currently anyway with a x on the reticle.

What!?! h4x!!~!~!!1`11 Muse needs to FIX THIS!

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I really don't see why this would make people take more than 1 rangefinder per ship. Also I don't see why that would be a bad thing if they did - what if the gunner was the only person with a spyglass and both engineers had range finders - the gunner is the person with the most free time to spot ships I think it would be pretty cool if people played like this.

Captains get this ability for free anyway, in the latest patch captain mark even shows where the ship is off screen with a floating arrow indicator! (OP OP)

This IS OP... it negates the point of the crew using the spyglass at all (beyond for map marking for allies; screw 'em, right?). A captain should have to depend on his crew to spot, for better or worse.

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All it would do is let you point out the location of the ship to your own crew (teamwork required) for them to spot it which shows its location to the rest of the team (teamwork result). Note the ship will not appear on the map if you mark an unspotted ship with rangefinder, the ship will only be rangefinder marked for a few seconds, and it will not appear to the ally ship at all.

I don't think this would "dumb it down" (what great powerful advanced effect do you think the range finder brings, even with my suggested changes?) but only make it appealing to the crews that want to use it. I know for a fact my team would ignore the rangefinder if it left a crew member without the ability to mark a ship to other players on the team, no matter what information it showed about enemy ships. (this is the biggest reason it's bad to take a rangefinder currently!) Are we too dumb to use the range finder, or smart enough to realize it's crap if it takes away a crew members ability to spot at all?
Spotting position is just too important and not having it at all on one player is very bad - one player spotting a ship can have a serious effect on the outcome of the battle, just think how many times that one player on your team spotted that metamidion right behind you and saved your ass. (I can think of a veteran player who thinks spotting is so important that he would always take spyglass as pilot before they added the captain mark ability)

I thought about it and I changed my mind. You're right. I'd be okay with the rangefinder providing a temporary spot of, say, 5 or so seconds, to allow the person who is actually carrying the spyglass to apply a proper spot.

Give range finder a type of captains mark. Once marked then range info is available if ship is spotted by spyglass.

Make range information available to the ship with rangefunder until spot from any spyglass is lost. This requires each ship to have their own rangefinder

This would make it viable. Only problem is now there are three types of bracket systems used to denote a marked ship

All good ideas. I think these are the best that you presented.

I'm in complete agreement with all this. Make the "rangefinder spot" a classic crosshair, like the heavy ammunition icon, and make it disappear once properly spotted by a spyglass user.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Spud Nick on February 25, 2016, 09:39:00 am
http://prnt.sc/a7rst9 (http://prnt.sc/a7rst9)
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: HamsterIV on February 25, 2016, 12:12:22 pm
It should be able to find the range of any solid object in the game world and show a marker of where that object is through the deck plating. That way when a pilot is flying through buildings or mine fields the crew can put a spot marker on objects the captain should know about.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Kamoba on February 25, 2016, 01:26:23 pm
It should be able to find the range of any solid object in the game world and show a marker of where that object is through the deck plating. That way when a pilot is flying through buildings or mine fields the crew can put a spot marker on objects the captain should know about.
I approve of this.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 25, 2016, 02:52:44 pm
That would be irritating. I disagree with the object marking. I understand your point. Me thinks of mobulas in paritan.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: HamsterIV on February 25, 2016, 04:29:13 pm
Spot mark wouldn't be persistent after the tool is deactivated. Think of it more as a laser pointer whose dot you can see through the deck plating than a spyglass for non ship objects.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Giersdorf on February 25, 2016, 09:53:13 pm
I haven't been playing long but never bothered even using it once because it creates negative stigma about it's usefulness. I think that if it's in the game it should have a sought after usability.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 25, 2016, 10:13:17 pm
Perhaps give it more utility, such as marking waypoints on a map.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Spud Nick on February 26, 2016, 02:50:56 am
Perhaps give it more utility, such as marking waypoints on a map.

Does it need to do anything else beside find the range of the ships? I know that this thread is about making it useful. I also know that many vets won't find the rangefinder useful because they are so use to looking at the map and the sights on their guns.

Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 26, 2016, 06:49:15 am
All it needs to do is mark range.

Spud is right. Rangefinder will never be necessarry. It is a nice tool to have. All you really need is a map and some sense to figure out the range to a target. Hmm.....
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Spud Nick on February 26, 2016, 08:53:59 am
Spud is right.

Yes! validation!
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Omniraptor on February 26, 2016, 09:29:54 am
Tutorial text aim assist is really stupid. It lit up a ship through a tar cloud yesterday (even flares can't do that). Plus it steals the rangefinder's only useful feature- knowing exactly when you're in range.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on February 26, 2016, 09:46:51 am
Perhaps give it more utility, such as marking waypoints on a map.

Does it need to do anything else beside find the range of the ships? I know that this thread is about making it useful. I also know that many vets won't find the rangefinder useful because they are so use to looking at the map and the sights on their guns.

Okay I guess the following would be the most modest functionality that would make the rangefinder usable:

I would regularly bring a rangefinder on a blender fish if all the above happened.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 26, 2016, 09:54:22 am
novices will be fine with it. They will learn how high above a ship to aim their crosshairs based off range. Battlefield is a mainstream game that introduced bullet drop a while ago. People adapted to it just fine. It is not a difficult concept to grasp but it is difficult to be proficient in.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Kamoba on February 26, 2016, 10:44:07 am

I would regularly bring a rangefinder on a blender fish if all the above happened.
That's a scary thought...

Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 26, 2016, 12:41:24 pm
I like this refined list. It makes sense.

My only issue is the component highlighting. Your description of it is vague. Seems like you considered the issue of cloud concealment and draw distance.

Yesterday i was on an artemis and saw chem sprayed weapons through clouds on a ship i could not spot. Seems like the highlight effect already exists.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Dementio on February 26, 2016, 03:38:56 pm
The range finder is given the following limited spotting ability if used on an unspotted ship - ships are marked for a limited number of seconds visible only to players on the same ship (essentially the exact same functionality as the captains mark ability, but with its own distinct set of brackets around the targeted ship)

This is everything I would want the Rangefinder to do, showing the distance next to the visible ship, not the name and not showing up on the map, which the Spyglass should be used for. Limit the time the distance is visible or make it as long as the Spyglass' spot, just show the damn distance in the first place, on any ship.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on February 26, 2016, 05:38:57 pm
I like this refined list. It makes sense.

My only issue is the component highlighting. Your description of it is vague. Seems like you considered the issue of cloud concealment and draw distance.

Yesterday i was on an artemis and saw chem sprayed weapons through clouds on a ship i could not spot. Seems like the highlight effect already exists.

These are other issues with tutorial text hi-lighting and should be addressed separately as they aren't suggested features for the rangefinder, and are not about the range of the ship.

To clarify - I do not want the range finder to hi-light components like tutorial text. Currently the tutorial text hi-lighting activates as soon as a component is in range of your gun - if tutorial text does this (which it currently does) there is no point using the rangefinder effect that shows that you are in range with a transition of 'X' to '.' in the aiming reticle.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 26, 2016, 07:32:21 pm

I would regularly bring a rangefinder on a blender fish if all the above happened.
That's a scary thought...

The only use for rangefinder I saw was in the old blenderfish duels where each uses the first clip to aim for the front gun. The rangefinder would let you know exactly when to shoot. By that logic it would have use on a metamidion to tell exactly when you're in greased range. In both cases it would be carried by the second engi not the gunner. You only need two spyglasses per ship and a rangefinder would let you engage as tight as possible and give you a small edge in duels where every fraction counts
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on February 28, 2016, 09:21:31 pm
(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/gunsoficarusonline/images/4/4b/Rangefinder.png/revision/latest?cb=20151217190419)


Okay so it's been two years now and this tool is still more useless than the harpoon - I believe it's time we all try really hard and think of another passive tool related to ship spotting for muse to implement as the rangefinder.



My Suggestion:


  • The rangefinder effect only works if the ship is first spotted by another player with a spyglass,[1] and the range finder effect remains active until that ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover.


  • The range finder is given the following limited spotting ability if used on an unspotted ship - ships are marked for a limited number of seconds visible only to players on the same ship (essentially the exact same functionality as the captains mark ability, but with its own distinct set of brackets around the targeted ship)


  • Once a ship is successfully marked by a rangefinder after already being spotted by a spyglass it displays the range of the ship in km from each ship on the spotting team as it does currently. This effect will remain active until the ship loses its spot through hard or soft cover and does not require constant spotting from the person using the rangefinder.



Already suggested to muse several times. Got the usual "we'll consider it" corporate spiel.


That being said the suggestions towards the rangefinder that have nothing to do with actually finding range of which to assist gunning accuracy, should not be involved with the rangefinder because such things are not what a rangefinder does.

Its like suggesting the extinguisher or buff hammer should have the ability to have rebuild and repair ability.


However. The spy glass could be used to the effect of looking at enemy stats. Since those are actually used in that fashion. e.g. hold the spy glass to a target much like a range finder to a spotted ship and get ship info. And if it is within a given range and zoomed into a specific part, you get a prompt on the condition of that part.


That being said that will mean the possible removal of the combat log. So pick geo as opposed to trying to break game balance (at least what little that exists)
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Kamoba on February 29, 2016, 03:50:51 am

I would regularly bring a rangefinder on a blender fish if all the above happened.
That's a scary thought...

The only use for rangefinder I saw was in the old blenderfish duels where each uses the first clip to aim for the front gun. The rangefinder would let you know exactly when to shoot. By that logic it would have use on a metamidion to tell exactly when you're in greased range. In both cases it would be carried by the second engi not the gunner. You only need two spyglasses per ship and a rangefinder would let you engage as tight as possible and give you a small edge in duels where every fraction counts

Exactly, that's why it is a scary thought, imagine how efficient coordinated ships would be! 0.0
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on February 29, 2016, 10:30:47 am
Hm. I'm honestly surprised that I don't see a "grant weapons from your ship a damage boost against the target" feature.

It's a nice niche for the tool on ships that run a mix of close + long range weapons, and would definitely give it a place on several ships that can't bring all three weapons to bear -- at the expense of having someone immediately available to repair, which seems fairly balanced.

Perhaps something like "When active, spots the enemy ship for your ship only (probably with some sort of special effect to show priority is on that ship). Displays the range to the target and increases damage against that ship by 10-15% as long as the Rangefinder is active and on-target. Rangefinder spots decay in 3 seconds after the Rangefinder is put away."

Might make having one of these on a ship really strong -- Galleon long-range sides come specifically to mind.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 29, 2016, 06:38:58 pm
That would be interesting.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 01, 2016, 03:13:25 pm
The rangefinder as advertised in the tooltip seems like it was meant to help inexperienced gunners land longer range shots on the more difficult guns.

In that regard, I think using the rangefinder should work the way it does currently but instead of the stupid circle thing, add the shot-path indicators for people on the guns like we have in practice mode. Doing this, players experienced with the difficult guns probably won't need it, however it would make longer-range guns like the hades and lumberjack more consistent for the layman. This would allow pilots to take things like hades or heavy flak more often without feeling like they're screwed out of those choices because their crews aren't lvl 45 dedicated gunners, as well as giving would-be gunners and engineers who never get to practice those guns more opportunities to get used to how they work.

It would also add an interesting dynamic to loadout choices. Pilots may ask themselves "can I sacrifice a tool here to help at longer range." or "can one engineer use range-finder while the rest snipe" and so on.

In the end, the really dedicated players won't need it, and in competitive play having that extra tool will be a bonus the vets won't want to sacrifice, but normal matches, the range-finder would allow pilots to practice builds they normally wouldn't attempt due to their fear of everyone missing everything, as well as giving gunners a chance to practice guns they normally never get to fire.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 01, 2016, 08:04:35 pm
1. too easy
2. it will cause lag.
3. difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns. An obvious as hell aiming arc silhouette is just insulting.
4. a simple fix on the aiming notches to make it clearer wtf the notches mean will serve as a far better way to help (without breaking the game).

range finder tells the range in numbers. then you look for that number on the aiming notch on the gun. voila same solution. less obnoxious and far more simple to implement.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 02, 2016, 10:07:29 pm
1. too easy
2. it will cause lag.
3. difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns. An obvious as hell aiming arc silhouette is just insulting.
4. a simple fix on the aiming notches to make it clearer wtf the notches mean will serve as a far better way to help (without breaking the game).

range finder tells the range in numbers. then you look for that number on the aiming notch on the gun. voila same solution. less obnoxious and far more simple to implement.

Of course it would be easy. Making shooting easier is the whole point of the rangefinder. Assuming the thing could function properly that's effectively what it's already supposed to do. All I'm suggesting is one method of making the information it's trying to provide easier to read.

As far as "it will cause lag" I highly doubt you know that for sure, but that's not a concern in my mind, as I'm trying to think of functions that would make the rangefinder useful assuming they function. I don't know if you think a shooting line would appear for everyone on the ship, but in my mind it would appear only for the person on the gun. Like the circles currently do, and the shot path currently implemented in practice mode does.

"difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns" is simply not true. When planning a strategy of attack on an enemy ship it's always safer to assume they can hit every shot, and when thinking tactically "oh their gun is difficult so I'm fine" is a mistake likely to end in death against experienced crews or even talented low levels. Plus saying "oh no don't use that gun your crew's not good enough" is a great way to make people not want to play the game, and corrals people that already play the game away from those guns. Not only that, but dedicating a pilot slot and taking time to watch people with the binoculars would create it's own balance dynamic. For instance pilots may ask themselves "if I stay back and the ally protects me can I sacrifice the slot to help accuracy?"

And for clarification on what the notches mean, I'm assuming you mean the notches on the lumberjack and hades? Assuming I'm understanding what you're suggesting here, that solution would make the rangefinder pointless for any gun that isn't modeled with notches. It's not like the Lumberjack and Hades are the only guns that are used at long range. For instance, the heavy flak. Not only that, but just telling the range is pretty much useless since one could just open the map and estimate distance from there. Range-finder would still be obsolete since people would say "No need to waste the spyglass or pilot tool slot, just look at the map."

Basically I think a tool intended to help gunners figure out their shots is an interesting idea, it was just implemented insanely poorly. People that don't know any better yet try to take it thinking they can help their gunners aim. That in itself isn't a bad thing in the right hands, but due to a confusing and distracting indicator that doesn't even properly calculate lead half the time it became counter-intuitive and harmful as it wasn't able to pull off what it was supposed to do. What I'm suggesting is a way to make the range-finder clearer so it properly pulls off that function of helping a gunner aim. Adding a simple shot-indicator graphic is intended to replace the vague circle things and portray information in a way that helps the gunner more accurately predict where their shot is going to go, as well as remove the need for the system to make the lead and drop calculations that it currently screws up.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on March 03, 2016, 08:38:00 am
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"difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns" is simply not true. When planning a strategy of attack on an enemy ship it's always safer to assume they can hit every shot, and when thinking tactically "oh their gun is difficult so I'm fine" is a mistake likely to end in death against experienced crews or even talented low levels. Plus saying "oh no don't use that gun your crew's not good enough" is a great way to make people not want to play the game, and corrals people that already play the game away from those guns. Not only that, but dedicating a pilot slot and taking time to watch people with the binoculars would create it's own balance dynamic. For instance pilots may ask themselves "if I stay back and the ally protects me can I sacrifice the slot to help accuracy?"

This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 03, 2016, 12:22:12 pm
This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

I don't necessarily agree with everything said in the video, and don't agree that lumberjack is always stronger than hwacha, but getting into that would take us away from the point of this discussion. For the sake of argument, would a tool that helps people move away from their hwacha "foo strategy" be such a bad thing?
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on March 03, 2016, 05:58:44 pm
This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

I don't necessarily agree with everything said in the video, and don't agree that lumberjack is always stronger than hwacha, but getting into that would take us away from the point of this discussion. For the sake of argument, would a tool that helps people move away from their hwacha "foo strategy" be such a bad thing?

You can kill a ship with just a lumberjack a lot faster than you can kill one with just a hwacha.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: BlackenedPies on March 03, 2016, 06:01:41 pm
And lumberjack has a much wider effective range than hwatcha
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 03, 2016, 07:12:50 pm
I could sit here and argue opinions about the lumberjack, but I don't quite think this is the thread for that.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 03, 2016, 10:01:20 pm
no... the whole point of the range finder is to find the range....
Its a tool to give a player extra data to improve their shooting. Not act as a goddamn blatant cheat tool.


Your whole spiel about assuming people should hit every shot is asinine. You don't plan for the ideal situation because the enemy is actively trying to not set up the ideal situation for you.

Hence you have to think about the ease of use of guns. Hence you use a gatling over a hades vs a squid. Its easier to hit with many factors adding to it.

Hades can cause fire, has higher dps per clip (and can break faster if it the hits were greater). But all that is useless if can't hit because its an arcing weapon that needs more than just pointing the reticle at the ship.

You ever wonder why the hades has obviously better hull break ability than a gatling? Because you clearly haven't considered it. And how you're asserting your point when you clearly haven't shown said consideration, makes it galling for me to read your spiel to justify your cheat tool.

I mean yeah you can use a hades to hit a squid but it won't be as reliable to hit than a gatling. But if you could. The hades would indeed break that hull faster than a gat, but thats a big gamble. Its a BIG IF.

And if there's one thing I teach and is definitely demonstrated by the countering picking fights with vets. You don't plan around ifs. Scrubs plan around ifs and they fly dumb crap like double flak.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 03, 2016, 11:36:19 pm
no... the whole point of the range finder is to find the range....
Its a tool to give a player extra data to improve their shooting. Not act as a goddamn blatant cheat tool.


Your whole spiel about assuming people should hit every shot is asinine. You don't plan for the ideal situation because the enemy is actively trying to not set up the ideal situation for you.

Hence you have to think about the ease of use of guns. Hence you use a gatling over a hades vs a squid. Its easier to hit with many factors adding to it.

Hades can cause fire, has higher dps per clip (and can break faster if it the hits were greater). But all that is useless if can't hit because its an arcing weapon that needs more than just pointing the reticle at the ship.

You ever wonder why the hades has obviously better hull break ability than a gatling? Because you clearly haven't considered it. And how you're asserting your point when you clearly haven't shown said consideration, makes it galling for me to read your spiel to justify your cheat tool.

I mean yeah you can use a hades to hit a squid but it won't be as reliable to hit than a gatling. But if you could. The hades would indeed break that hull faster than a gat, but thats a big gamble. Its a BIG IF.

And if there's one thing I teach and is definitely demonstrated by the countering picking fights with vets. You don't plan around ifs. Scrubs plan around ifs and they fly dumb crap like double flak.

You say the rangefinder is a tool to find range, but that's pointless. It already does that, and that's clearly not enough. Anyone could open up their map to get a reasonably accurate estimate of distance.

You say it's a tool to give people data to improve their shooting, and that's exactly what I'm suggesting it do.

You call it a "cheat tool" because it helps gunners figure out how to shoot. If we assumed that the circle thing wasn't vague and inaccurate, that's exactly what it already does. Even more because it's supposed to tell people exactly how to lead.

You think it would imbalance the game because people would suddenly start landing their shots, and that's why I suggest it act like it already does and take up a pilot slot while requiring someone to stare at the target.

But clearly I didn't consider any of that. Honestly, I don't understand the aggression. I had an idea, people countered the idea, I defended the idea. So the cycle repeats. That's how intelligent debates work. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I didn't properly word my arguments.  I'm not mad people disagree with me, but it's not like I'm just going to go "oh okay this Jazzhand guy is always right about everything. glad that idea's done for." I'm gonna try and defend my idea. If I'm reading too much into things then you can forget this whole paragraph, but trying to talk down on me saying things like I "clearly haven't considered it." Sounds like I hit a nerve somewhere. Did I offend you? I do sincerely apologize if I did because that was never my intention. That's an honest apology too. I know sarcasm or lack thereof can sometimes get misconstrued over the internet, but if I did actually hit a nerve I really am sorry. Or I'm thinking too much and this paragraph is pointless.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Omniraptor on March 04, 2016, 12:09:43 pm
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis.  I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?

Djinn's suggestion of bonus damage, I think it's a bad idea (no offense djinn) because it forces people to stare at an enemy, not fun gameplay in the least.
Same for OverlordEgg's idea of practice mode style lasers.. I would really hate to see a laser pointer style sight, or even more blatant a curved arc outline. It would take away 90% of of the fun of shooting stuff.

Whatever we do IMO it should involve clicking once and putting the rangefinder away, not keeping it out. Personally I like Geo's revised suggestion https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,7397.msg124783.html#msg124783
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 04, 2016, 12:36:32 pm
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis.  I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?

Isn't that what sniping builds at the moment currently are? Staring at someone while your gunners snipe? I mean, sure, there's all sorts of tactical games involved for positioning and whatnot, but it's not like you can't do that with a range-finder. Might even be fun to watch your crew's shots fly in and hit the target from a thousand meters and up. Maybe it would even encourage  some more communication. Like "I'm gonna be zoomed in so let me know if we're being flanked."

I also never intended for this to be used on everything, just as a practice tool for certain guns that typically get no love because most gunners aren't MLG enough for most pilots to consider letting them try.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on March 04, 2016, 01:00:29 pm
Djinn's suggestion of bonus damage, I think it's a bad idea (no offense djinn) because it forces people to stare at an enemy, not fun gameplay in the least.

No offense taken!

My goals wasn't to put a player in stand-by mode. If you're taking damage or have three guns on target it's always superior to heal or fire as necessary. The damage boost suggestion was aimed at times when your Pyramjdion is approaching the enemy's blind side, and only two guns can fire, or when your Flak/Lumber Galleon side is shooting. What's the last guy doing? Most likely checking buffs that are already up, or sitting idle.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 04, 2016, 05:09:09 pm
Most likely standing on the spear.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on March 04, 2016, 05:41:22 pm
Most likely standing on the spear.

Exactly. Hence my suggestion: make him standing there DO something to help his crew.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 04, 2016, 10:57:23 pm
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis.  I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?

Isn't that what sniping builds at the moment currently are? Staring at someone while your gunners snipe? I mean, sure, there's all sorts of tactical games involved for positioning and whatnot, but it's not like you can't do that with a range-finder. Might even be fun to watch your crew's shots fly in and hit the target from a thousand meters and up. Maybe it would even encourage  some more communication. Like "I'm gonna be zoomed in so let me know if we're being flanked."

I also never intended for this to be used on everything, just as a practice tool for certain guns that typically get no love because most gunners aren't MLG enough for most pilots to consider letting them try.


rule 3 I teach.

"The impatient pilot is the one that makes the first mistake." Everytime, without fail. Match losses occur with simple choices like that.


That being said at decent level play sniping battles aren't just vets waiting for the other to make a mistake that won't happen.
You position and force the enemy to make a mistake.

That being said I do agree on rangefinder acting like a spot where a spotted ship gets their range relayed until the spot is shaken. The tool does require to be more dynamic. The tool itself however should still act as the name suggests.

A rangefinder and NOTHING MORE.



@egg.

You might have given the concept of ease of use some consideration. But clearly not enough since you clearly don't understand that the guns stats are based around that. And for you completely ignore such a fundamental part of the game's design to then create a point made pointless by the part you ignored renders your whole spiel pointless.

"Hey guy's let walk on water... because it really improves transport options for traversing the seas and rivers. No more waiting to get on ferries and boats, because... walking on water."
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: DJ Tipz N Trix on March 05, 2016, 12:15:43 am
If Rangefinder worked all the time and didn't stop working even when you can clearly see the enemy ship, it would be fine.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Omniraptor on March 05, 2016, 10:54:52 am
My goals wasn't to put a player in stand-by mode. If you're taking damage or have three guns on target it's always superior to heal or fire as necessary. The damage boost suggestion was aimed at times when your Pyramjdion is approaching the enemy's blind side, and only two guns can fire, or when your Flak/Lumber Galleon side is shooting. What's the last guy doing? Most likely checking buffs that are already up, or sitting idle.

shouldn't they be repairing engines? if we are not currently taking damage i am always burning kerosene.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on March 05, 2016, 11:09:50 am
Shouldn't they be repairing engines? if we are not currently taking damage i am always burning kerosene.

On a Pyramidion, perhaps. That's not necessarily true of an idle Sniper Galleon though, or a Spire with only two long-range guns.

Basically, my goal with the +damage solution was to open up alternative playstyles (2 long-range weapons + short range weapons, for example, or sheer aggression) for ships that can't necessarily get 3+ guns on a target, which making the trade-off (inability to maximize damage while simultaneously repairing) meaningful.

I think the best solution for the Rangefinder IS something like that (although maybe not this specific implementation), as everything else is...too simplistic, I think. Simply identifying distance doesn't seem strong enough, and the current implementation is...awkward at best.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 05, 2016, 11:55:08 am
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.



Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Kamoba on March 05, 2016, 11:56:23 am
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.
Yes but they don't require someone to spot the target with a spyglass before hand..
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on March 05, 2016, 12:05:56 pm
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.

I guess that is correct then, yes. Because just finding the range to the target doesn't seem impactful enough for a tool slot in this game.

However, I will also point out that Spyglasses don't allow you to put targeting indicators on things you see, hitting a gun with a hammer doesn't make it shoot harder, and holding the claw of a Phoenix doesn't make your car turn faster, so I think adding extra mechanics isn't outside the realm of plausibility, given that current equipment doesn't follow it that closely either. :P
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 05, 2016, 12:18:15 pm
I agree with you. I was just pointing out that the rangefinder does not need extra utilities. A lot of ideas I have seen in here seem better suited to an entirely new tool or for the rangefinder to be renamed and revamped into a multi-purpose utility tool.



I also liked Jazzhand's idea to make the iron sites for hades and what not more obvious. I actually like Jazzhand's idea more. In fact. I am going to delete my previous thing in this edit without changing anything else I just typed.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Crafeksterty on March 06, 2016, 04:39:20 pm
The spyglasses spotting ability is simulating the mindset of war tactician and awareness of the enemy in a very simple and cheaty way.
The rangefinder should give the same impression in the way a rangefinder would be helpful in a game as well. But how? And that is the question here.

For those of you who say that the rangefinder is just an extra data tool do not see the waste of space and content the rangefinder is providing. A selection that shouldn't be a selection.
And as a game element, it does absolutely nothing but tell range, but the devs did try to simulate a way it would help a gunner (And that is the circle thing) Which they did not make 100% accurate because of how it can prove to be too good if it did do it 100% accurate.

And you know what... I think the circle thing should be accurate, that way we dont have a SUPER obvious reticle like in practice mode, but a vague one where you have to aim around and find the sweet spot.

What is also interesting (SOMETHING NO ONE MENTIONED) is that the circle thing predicts their speed. So a speeding galleon moving from left to right, you can make the long range shot with the circle thingy without leading the shot yourself.


The trade off here is, Someone has to be Aiming at that specific ship with the Rangefinder in order for the gunners to get any use for it.
But the rangefinder sucks dick simply because of the circle thing is NOT 100% accurate on purpose, And if it did, it still would not guarantee you shots because the speed and altitude of the ship can change by the time the predicted landing of the shot would go there.




So my suggestion is,
-Make the rangefinder helper circle thing better, or more obvious, and/or 100% Accurate.

The cons are,
-Occupies one person
-Gunners searching for a sweet spot
-2/4 people dont have Spyglass OR Pilot has 1 less ship tool

With this, Sniping can be misleading if you are using the helper and being charged at with his movement being too erratic for the rangefinder to help you.
Giving bad habits, but ultimately makes sniping a mind game of movement if it becomes useful.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 07, 2016, 12:52:25 am
I always figured the spyglass was a way to keep a ship spotted which, presumbly, a crewmate could see. I figured it acted as a way to keep communication clutter free. Now  the crewmate does not have to constantly relay information to the captain.

Unlike your suggestion that it is some master tactician thing. It is simply a replacement for communication.

Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 07, 2016, 05:30:38 pm
Let's try something new. Without giving away the function of the rangefinder itself, what do you want it to actually do? To give you an example, I'll start.

I, and it looks like Crafeksterty too want to make a tool that helps improve gunner accuracy and give pilots and gunners the courage to pull themselves away from their hwacha comfort zones.

If we can come to an understanding of how exactly we want the rangefinder to affect gameplay, perhaps we can get around some of our arguing and come to a function we can all agree on.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Letus on March 07, 2016, 05:39:22 pm
Telling range is one thing I find useful, the problem is the lack of spot...and as a gunner...I'm not looking through it because I'm using my visual cues of say the drop sight on a lumberjack, of course the problem with some guns and really long distances is you can't see if your shot is over or under very well.

So, personally, I think a range finder would be more usable if you could use it while mounted, but you then lose your gun sights (but your gun's arc doesn't move while you're looking through it.)
That might make it too strong though....

Otherwise, to keep the communication deal
Range and speed of ship.  That way the person range spotting can relay to the gunner, if they are skilled.

The huge downside is each square is 1km, so right now, spotting a ship and finding its range is a matter of pressing "m"
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 07, 2016, 05:59:16 pm
Telling range is one thing I find useful, the problem is the lack of spot...and as a gunner...I'm not looking through it because I'm using my visual cues of say the drop sight on a lumberjack, of course the problem with some guns and really long distances is you can't see if your shot is over or under very well.

So, personally, I think a range finder would be more usable if you could use it while mounted, but you then lose your gun sights (but your gun's arc doesn't move while you're looking through it.)
That might make it too strong though....

Otherwise, to keep the communication deal
Range and speed of ship.  That way the person range spotting can relay to the gunner, if they are skilled.

The huge downside is each square is 1km, so right now, spotting a ship and finding its range is a matter of pressing "m"

How is that going to work in practice? I find the idea of using rangefinder while mounted intriguing, but as for the rest, you think someone's going to go "oh they're at 768 meters and moving at 22 meters per second so I should move the gun half a centimeter to the left and one centimeter up?"

Telling players the range, maybe even a ship's speed too, is an interesting idea in theory, especially given the name "Rangefinder," but I think people are getting too hung up on that name. Unless a player is either a mathematical genius savant or already so experienced with the guns they wouldn't need to know more than they can learn from looking at the map anyway, if that's all it does it's hardly helping anyone, and in fact, has technically made the rangefinder less useful than it is now, because you've removed one of its current functions.

I should add again, though, that making the range-finder usable while on the gun itself is an interesting thought, that maybe we should apply to some of the other theories here to see how that changes things. Maybe even make it a gunner tool instead of a pilot one?


I still challenge people to try out the question I posed just above and see where that takes us.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Daft Loon on March 07, 2016, 06:32:23 pm
Without giving away the function of the rangefinder itself, what do you want it to actually do?

Provide information about the position and/or movement of the target that might help with positioning and/or aiming.


I took it into practice a while ago with a mind to using it for precise positioning of a mine squid, i think that could be a worthwhile niche use of a rangefinder that exclusively finds range but it was far too difficult to keep it on target & reading the range.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on March 07, 2016, 06:40:27 pm
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).

Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.

Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 07, 2016, 06:57:36 pm
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).

Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.

Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m

So essentially you want people to see rangefinder and take it so they can kill quicker? Not shooting down or arguing your idea, just asking for the purpose of my earlier question.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on March 07, 2016, 07:02:51 pm
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't WANT a tool that takes skill out of gunning. Giving the range to a target? Sure. You still have to be skilled. I don't like the aim-assist though: I think it teaches over reliance on the assistant, and will stop gunners from learning the guns as well as they should (and make them less able to aim for specific components).

Hence why I was suggesting a damage boost: it provides the range to target to assist gunners in finding the right trajectory, and the rewards them for being skilled enough to lane their shots with just that information.

Maybe make the bonus fall off the closer the target is to discourage Range finding as a close-range brawling tactic. Something like +15% at 1100m down to +5% at 0m

So essentially you want people to see rangefinder and take it so they can kill quicker? Not shooting down or arguing your idea, just asking for the purpose of my earlier question.

Not necessarily. I want it to assist gunners (and perhaps pilots, for that matter) to do their job better, but not by reducing the skill involved in gunning, which I feel an aim-assist does.

Damage was just the first method of accomplishing this that came to mind. I'd gladly explore other options.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 07, 2016, 07:11:29 pm
That's fair. The reason I posed this question is because I see in this thread a lot of arguing that's going nowhere. I feel like a lot of people have their own ideas, and when someone else comes up with one it must be wrong because it's not theirs. I'm hoping that by making people break their thoughts down to as simple as "how should this affect gameplay," we can find some common ground and maybe go from there.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 07, 2016, 08:30:45 pm
I'm going to post my thoughts (again).

I want rangefinder to display the range of the ship to everyone on the ship the same way brackets are displayed for a spyglass spot. The user should not have to remain zoomed in. Just click and do other things. The information of exact range is extremely useful. Why? Pressing M and counting squares takes time. The blips on the map are large (they take up roughly 100 meters). Using the map is not as accurate as a rangefinder.

Which guns are capable of utilizing the range finder? All of them. Each gun has a max range. That alone is useful for the captain to make decisions.

Which projectile guns benefit the most? Lumberjack, Hades, and to an extent the Mortar. These three guns have iron sights.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 07, 2016, 08:43:53 pm
I don't think people quite get the whole point of trying to find common ground. We're never going to get anywhere if we keep slapping our whole ideas into each other. The point is to find what we DO agree on and THEN move on to the details.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Letus on March 07, 2016, 09:16:30 pm

How is that going to work in practice? I find the idea of using rangefinder while mounted intriguing, but as for the rest, you think someone's going to go "oh they're at 768 meters and moving at 22 meters per second so I should move the gun half a centimeter to the left and one centimeter up?"
I'll admit, I'd rather have just the range, speed is just a matter of centimeters, but range is arc.
Quote

I should add again, though, that making the range-finder usable while on the gun itself is an interesting thought, that maybe we should apply to some of the other theories here to see how that changes things. Maybe even make it a gunner tool instead of a pilot one?


I still challenge people to try out the question I posed just above and see where that takes us.

Well here is a thought.
Perhaps if viewing through the range finder somehow thickened contrails, like...tracer rounds?

Or we can have that be the new gunner shot: tracer.  Don't know what its stats would be, should do vanilla speed...and thickens contrails..

granted you'd still have issues with really long distances needing Lesmok.

But if the Range Finder can see the trails easier, then not only can it well..find range, but also be used to relay much easier than looking at the tiny dot through the spyglass of wether you went over or under.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 07, 2016, 09:29:19 pm
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.
Yes but they don't require someone to spot the target with a spyglass before hand..

spy glasses aren't used to place a tracer on an enemy ship either.

wrenches and spanners and mallet don't just fix by hitting things either.
How far do you want the rabbit hole to go?


Anything that lowers the given skill as is (which I see as the bare minimum where lower will be disgusting)
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 08, 2016, 09:11:08 am
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot, BUT only the person holding and scoped in with the range-finder sees them. The person on the gun sees nothing but the usual.

Thus person holding the range-finder becomes the "spotter" telling the gunner where to shoot. This way we can facilitate communication and teamwork, and provide people on the guns with helpful information that can assist them in doing their job better without making things too easy for them. It also removes the worry that people might be bored "staring" at an enemy, since the spotter will (if they're doing their job) be watching moving shot indicators/tracers and relaying information the whole time. Over time as gunners get more used to landing shots from various distances, they will adjust to the point where they no longer need the spotter's guidance, and overall skill level will most likely improve, but even for experienced gunners, you could start adjusting to more extreme ranges, like 2km+ (I know I could use some more practice anyway).

Potentially, you could also add a crosshair of sorts to the range-finder with markings that correlate to the markings on the lumberjack and hades. (Though I'm not sure how that would work exactly, given the two different perspectives, but it's the start of an idea)

Of course, the range-finder could also tell the exact range still, otherwise the name wouldn't be relevant. Which would have the added bonus of also informing people when exactly their gun is in range. Whether or not the shot indicator the spotter sees should disappear at a shot's max range is something worth thinking about. I think it would be a benefit, as multiple cones for something like a carronade going off into oblivion cold somewhat obscure vision, and it would create a nice communication dynamic of "wait for it...wait for it...3..2..1..shoot!" However, making the range-finder too powerful has been a valid concern, so it's up for debate. Alternatively, we could use tracers. In this instance however I think shot-path wins out. Tracers you would only see AFTER the first shot, which if you're trying to optimize distance for that first shot, pretty much defeats the point, and telling the exact range is something range-finder does already, so only relying on that has been proven to be unnecessary. This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, mind you, what it would do is make range-finder mostly a sniping tool, which I'm okay with, but I'm doing my best to try to keep everybody's ideas in mind, and telling when guns are in range was a suggested feature that people seemed interested in.

One argument FOR tracers instead of shot-path, is that this idea is inspired by real world sniper spotters, who watch the path of their partner sniper's shot and tell them how to correct if they miss.

However I personally would argue against tracers overall, as most of the shots that you would need that kind of assistance with practically leave a tracer trail already.

I've tried to find a compromise that suits everyone, but if something's wrong with it, or you feel left out, or if I could've argued my idea better (that one feels like it's always the case), feel free to tear it the usual new one.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 08, 2016, 09:43:30 am
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-

instant no.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 08, 2016, 09:48:39 am
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-

instant no.

I've tried so hard to keep everyone's thoughts in mind and keep this as reasonable and diplomatic a debate as I possibly can despite everything. Now I know you have a reputation to keep up, but you could try to not be an asshat for the maybe one minute it would take you to read the whole thing. Maybe you'll be surprised, maybe you won't. Who fuckin knows.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 08, 2016, 10:05:10 am
So I've been thinking, how about this new idea: There are shot-path indicators you see before the shot, or tracer paths you see after the shot-

instant no.

I've tried so hard to keep everyone's thoughts in mind and keep this as reasonable and diplomatic a debate as I possibly can despite everything. Now I know you have a reputation to keep up, but you could try to not be an asshat for the maybe one minute it would take you to read the whole thing. Maybe you'll be surprised, maybe you won't. Who fuckin knows.

I wasn't surprised. Its you elaborating on an idea from the core concept (the above quoted text). And frankly I wasted my time reading the elaboration since it still uses said quoted text as the basis.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 08, 2016, 10:14:42 am
I wasn't surprised. Its you elaborating on an idea from the core concept (the above quoted text). And frankly I wasted my time reading the elaboration since it still uses said quoted text as the basis.

It's a compromise. An attempt to find a way to make everyone happy without sacrificing my own position completely. If you want this to proceed, you could tell why you don't agree, suggest a change in the idea, suggest a change of direction of thought, maybe even suggest your own idea. Honestly there are countless ways this discussion could go, but instead you decide to act like a bullheaded child. Do people actually take you seriously? At least I'm trying to stay diplomatic and peaceful and consider other people's thoughts. For instance, even YOURS. You thought it would be overpowered for the gunner to simply see the shot path? So I nerfed it by making them rely on another to tell them.

Or we could, you know, just shoot down each other's ideas without giving them a chance. That's how things get done.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 08, 2016, 02:48:27 pm
Quote
Or we could, you know, just shoot down each other's ideas without giving them a chance. That's how things get done.
Quote
Shoot down each other's ideas.

Lol.

Anyways i agree with jazz. I do not like the idea of tracers because it seems bulky at best. As you said, all the guns that would need it already have tracers.

As far as showing a shot indicator / path i kinda like it. It would offer some extra communication and guarantee a first hit at the expense of some time.

My only objection is it would honestly make the guns OP. Lumberjack and hades are already very powerful if the shooter gets the beat on a ship in that first or second shot. Being able to spam their first volley would honestly break balance imo. It sucks as it is going against the top tier gunners and even they usually miss their first shot.

Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: The Djinn on March 08, 2016, 03:18:06 pm
Hm. What about a pilot tool usable whole on a gun (via an extra inventory button) that shows the range to target constantly (whenever on gun) and, when active, allows you to fire shots with whatever the guns current ammo is at 100% - 300% firing rate, but shows hit indicators and projectiles only to you and deals no damage.

Swapping to it wouldn't change the "actual" reload or firing rate of the gun.

So gunners could take it to figure out shot trajectory, firing test shots before switching back to actual ammo.

It's a bit weird, but it might work.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Letus on March 08, 2016, 05:43:21 pm
Another thought would be to give the range finder a different zoom...maybe..uhm...if I had good visuals I'd show what I'm getting at

Basically, we can make the Range Finder keep it's ability to track range on indicator on a spotted ship, but we give the Range Finder something to help visually measure distances of ships if they aren't spotted....

Like...let's say you're looking at a ship...and you zoom in until say...4x zoom...at that zoom, the ship mostly fills the viewfinder, which suggests maybe...1250m away, of course there would be like an indicator of what zoom you're in...

I know, horrible...making people think to use a tool, but if People can get on a lumberjack, look at a map to see a ship is about 1500m away, and know that that range is at about the 2.5 click (that's what I call it) or midway down the drop sight with lesmok...then people can learn that system..

Granted..you'd have to tell the differences of silhouettes, and how they look in each zoom to judge distance since each ship is obviously different...

I guess what I was trying to describe was the Coincidence Rangefinder
(http://www.maritime.org/doc/br224/img/dia22.jpg)

(http://www.tvre.org/images/02_rys_05.jpg)

I can't really say much better, but those two images was what I was after.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 08, 2016, 07:27:37 pm
My only objection is it would honestly make the guns OP. Lumberjack and hades are already very powerful if the shooter gets the beat on a ship in that first or second shot. Being able to spam their first volley would honestly break balance imo. It sucks as it is going against the top tier gunners and even they usually miss their first shot.

If it still needs to be nerfed I'm open to ideas, but I currently don't think so. I see the current idea as balancing it's own use on two main aspects:

1. Tunnel Vision:
Keep in mind that just to use the range-finder is already sacrificing a pilot slot and tying up one crew member to its use. If it's given to an engineer, that's someone who isn't repairing or shooting, and if it's the pilot, that's someone who has sacrificed some of his maneuverability (one less pilot tool remember), and is zoomed in on one single ship, and focusing on relaying instructions, meaning he's paying less attention to the battle around him outside that ship. This alone means that with one person drawing fire it would make a teammate more potentially able to sneak up on them. I realize it doesn't guarantee it mind you, but it's a lot more to have to focus on while zoomed into a single ship and concentrating on adjusting a gunner's firing arcs. I may have to try flying with spyglass constantly zoomed in to test this. Potentially, we could even require a ship to be zoomed in on a certain amount, for example, make them take up 75% (arbitrary number, this could change) of the range-finder's view for the arcs to appear. This could also help facilitate communication between captains as well, since being zoomed in means the other pilot would have to warn you of incoming ships.

2. Delayed Reaction:
When you tell someone to do something (repair the engines, or open fire for instance) they're not going to immediately parse what you say and respond. Even the best players will still have a little delay, due to the time it takes for the server to relay the words coming through your mic to their speakers, and simple human reaction time. The delay between telling someone information and the gunner responding and correcting means it's not necessarily an immediate and surgical hit. You'll have to have some REALLY good communication skills to catch the faster ships like the squid, or even a medium speed ship that suddenly uses hydro, to the point where it would probably just be more reliable to let the gunner try aiming on their own because their reaction will be faster and you have to focus on maneuvering the ship to keep up. At this point the squid, in this instance, has closed inside your arming time and is killing you, and you're down a pilot tool because you brought the rangefinder. This leaves you even more vulnerable than sniping ships at close range usually are, and more reliant on your teammate, because you probably need him to bail you out.

Another smaller difficulty is the way the current shot indicators interact with clouds. The moment that line hits a cloud it stops right then and there, which would of course make using it for long distance sniping hard, and give opponents the chance to neutralize the rangefinder's effects by using clouds for cover.

I see where you're coming from. More lumber and hades hits = bad time. That's a valid concern, and that's the main reason why I nerfed my original idea into where it is now.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 08, 2016, 08:12:42 pm
Too kooky imo.  Not really fitting with the idea of a rangefinder.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 08, 2016, 08:19:55 pm
Too kooky imo.  Not really fitting with the idea of a rangefinder.

What do you mean it doesn't fit the "idea of a rangefinder?" And what about the function itself? What if the tool had a different name?
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 08, 2016, 08:24:05 pm
I meant to reply to the post suggesting some kind of captain-activated contrail-generating something or other... seems like discussion has moved on.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 09, 2016, 08:21:18 pm
STEP ONE to a civil conversation about ideas: Ignore all of Jazzhand's posts.

STEP TWO: Post civil posts.


Anyways, I like the idea Egg had of letting the person, and only the person with the rangefinder see all the information, but I would make it be the highlighted arcs of all the guns as demonstrated in practice. This would be something I would actually use to train people. Everything else, not really.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Omniraptor on March 09, 2016, 11:30:35 pm
i'm actually not opposed to overlordegg's compromise ideas that only others can see the arc outlines. but i'm not all for it either, imo the arcs should not be complete, they should only give say the first 500 meters. and maybe extend that to 750 meters if there are two rangefinders being used..
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 10, 2016, 12:27:38 am
i'm actually not opposed to overlordegg's compromise ideas that only others can see the arc outlines. but i'm not all for it either, imo the arcs should not be complete, they should only give say the first 500 meters. and maybe extend that to 750 meters if there are two rangefinders being used..

That's an interesting thought, though the problem I see with it is that within 750 meters most people I give weapons like the lumberjack and hades to can already land most of their shots without help, especially if they're using lesmok ammo, and the person using the range-finder is zoomed in as well, meaning if their target is outside 750 meters they're probably not seeing anything at all. Then add that to the fact that the line already cuts off at clouds and that the gunner can't even see anything, plus the delays between saying information and response. I feel like with all the potential confusion that can get lost in translation between people, the person holding the rangefinder should be the one person who really knows what they're doing. I'm not completely against having a range cutoff, but as I see it now, to do that without defeating the purpose of the whole thing the distance would probably have to be so far that most guns would hit their max bullet range first anyway.

I also think allowing the rangefinder to show a bullet's path all the way to its max range would add be an interesting learning tool for pilots, allowing people to more efficiently dance around and position within their gun's ranges, and making the range finding part of the range finder more relevant. Another interesting thought is perhaps even allowing the rangefinder to show arming time somewhere along the prediction path. To me, this would be a really neat thing to have when piloting as a visual to put proper range in perspective up close, though I fear that might make it too powerful.

...but I would make it be the highlighted arcs of all the guns as demonstrated in practice. This would be something I would actually use to train people. Everything else, not really.

What do you mean by "the highlighted arcs of all the guns as demonstrated in practice?" If I'm understanding you right, that's exactly what I'm saying the rangefinder should do.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 10, 2016, 07:42:28 am
I really like the idea of rangefinder showing arcs.  As for the distance of projected arcs, maybe the more you zoom in the farther out the projections go?

This way you can either zoom way in and have very accurate predictions but poor awareness or stay zoomed out to watch the big picture but be somewhat less accurate with the projection.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 10, 2016, 08:05:44 am
I really like the idea of rangefinder showing arcs.  As for the distance of projected arcs, maybe the more you zoom in the farther out the projections go?

This way you can either zoom way in and have very accurate predictions but poor awareness or stay zoomed out to watch the big picture but be somewhat less accurate with the projection.

This is a nice touch.

I would also add that the HUD should disappear while using rangefinder. Further limiting situational awareness since this seems to be the balancing feature.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 10, 2016, 01:32:08 pm
This is a nice touch.

I would also add that the HUD should disappear while using rangefinder. Further limiting situational awareness since this seems to be the balancing feature.

GASP I was noticed!!!!

Definitely agree with that.  Maybe the compass and the hull health banner could stick around but i don't think you should see component damage indicators.  Or is that going too far?
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 10, 2016, 04:06:36 pm
I did not consider the hull health and compass.

Those two should stay. I was only thinking about the component damage indicators going away.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 10, 2016, 07:42:57 pm
Well, I really like this idea.  Though I'm sure other people have lots of issues with it.

Or totally different ideas. 
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 11, 2016, 01:39:03 pm
I really like the idea of rangefinder showing arcs.  As for the distance of projected arcs, maybe the more you zoom in the farther out the projections go?

This way you can either zoom way in and have very accurate predictions but poor awareness or stay zoomed out to watch the big picture but be somewhat less accurate with the projection.

This is a nice touch.

I would also add that the HUD should disappear while using rangefinder. Further limiting situational awareness since this seems to be the balancing feature.

I originally posed potentially requiring someone to zoom in enough on a ship so that a % of the ship filled the view before they got to see arcs, but I think I like your ideas better.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 12, 2016, 04:08:44 pm
Well it seems we're all in agreement -- how can we make this happen?
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: OverlordEgg on March 12, 2016, 05:33:14 pm
Well it seems we're all in agreement -- how can we make this happen?

If you want to help out more you can email feedback@musegames.com and bug them reference this thread, although during the dev fireside chat yesterday when I asked "are you going to do anything with the rangefinder anytime soon" they replied with a surprisingly definite "yes" so it's possible they've already been reading this thread. Still, it can't hurt to try anyway just in case.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Akagify on March 23, 2016, 01:31:13 pm
Well I like the idea with arcs, but what about having the rangefinder show the horizontal and vertical angle to the enemy ship in relation to your ship?

One idea could be to give the ships center points, and no matter where on the ship the rangefinder would be used it would give the angles between those fixed points on the ships.

I also like the thought of making the rangefinder work somewhat better on already spotted ships as some have mentioned earlier in the thread, maybe by then relying the information to the whole ship or just directly to the person on the helm when clicking a marked target... Possibly as a timed effect, like 5 secs or something before needing to be done again? Then whether or not it would be too much to let that limited effect last the time out even when dropping the rangefinder for a second I can't tell.

That would help the captain keep the ship in a position where the guns would be in arc and would in some cases make builds with very slim/focused arc possible so I just thought it could be interesting =X
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 25, 2016, 11:10:10 am
most players (even noobs) can shoot accurately at 700m. Having help at that range and below is so pointless.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Omniraptor on March 25, 2016, 03:49:01 pm
I disagree max. In a blenderfish duel every millisecond counts. In the end it comes down to twitch reaction and ping.. but having a rangefinder can't hurt.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: MightyKeb on March 25, 2016, 05:55:29 pm
I disagree max. In a blenderfish duel every millisecond counts. In the end it comes down to twitch reaction and ping.. but having a rangefinder can't hurt.

Heavy clip, lochnagar and heavy carronade nerfs have kind of ruined blenderfish duels. But yes, it once had a very good niche for it.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Mr.Bando on March 27, 2016, 09:36:31 pm
I don't mind the rangefinder bringing up the distance between yourself and the target. If it brings up the target hull and armour health bars up as well, that would be sweet.

I don't find it a problem for the rangefinder to highlight a projectile path of a given weapon the shooter is operating.... as long as it only shows the path that normal ammo would take, doesn't calculate the leading required to hit a moving targeted, nor calculate for the Coriolis effect if your ship is moving. If a ghost projectile path is too powerful, what about a ghost projectile instead? The spotter would have to keep a continuous bead on the target for the gunner to see the path that the ghost projectile takes, otherwise it disappears and the spotter can't go off to repair.

Because it would simply be bullshit if this tool allow newbie gunners to hit a squid going at full throttle from 1500 meters away while their own ship is being rocked about from minotaur fire. You want to make this tool more useful, not overpower it. Maybe give the rangefinder a minimum zoom level where it would discourage or at least make impractical to use at close range. Ie powerful binoculars to read a sign that is only ten meters away
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on March 28, 2016, 04:53:00 am
Thematically the range finder was never used to assess damage on a ship.

It was the spy glass that was used for that. Plus the vagueness of a ship's condition is kind of an important factor in combat. If we see every kind of information in the game, its all just boring number crunching as opposed to a far more interesting game of probability.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: GeoRmr on April 01, 2016, 07:24:18 pm
Thematically the range finder was never used to assess damage on a ship.

It was the spy glass that was used for that. Plus the vagueness of a ship's condition is kind of an important factor in combat. If we see every kind of information in the game, its all just boring number crunching as opposed to a far more interesting game of probability.

Thematically the spyglass was never used for combination forward looking infra red, infra red search track, multiple target tracking and identification with radar applications.

But that's what it does at the moment.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: Solidusbucket on April 02, 2016, 12:44:13 am
Thematically the range finder was never used to assess damage on a ship.

It was the spy glass that was used for that. Plus the vagueness of a ship's condition is kind of an important factor in combat. If we see every kind of information in the game, its all just boring number crunching as opposed to a far more interesting game of probability.

Thematically the spyglass was never used for combination forward looking infra red, infra red search track, multiple target tracking and identification with radar applications.

But that's what it does at the moment.

actually, all the spy glass does at the moment is ruin immersion, Gomer. It would be nice if the GOIO community could get a utilitiy tool that did not give a distinct advantage to the "try hards' of the community. The spyglass is seriously the equivalent of chemspray. The only people that know how to utilize it properly are tryhard Ryder clans (you, Gomer) and stacked 45 lobbies.
Title: Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
Post by: DJ Logicalia on April 02, 2016, 02:46:49 am
I lol'd at Gomer