Author Topic: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread  (Read 52452 times)

Offline The Djinn

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [CA]
    • 25 
    • 41
    • 36 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2016, 05:41:22 pm »
Most likely standing on the spear.

Exactly. Hence my suggestion: make him standing there DO something to help his crew.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

  • Member
  • Salutes: 119
    • [AI]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • My spaghetti channel
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2016, 10:57:23 pm »
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis.  I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?

Isn't that what sniping builds at the moment currently are? Staring at someone while your gunners snipe? I mean, sure, there's all sorts of tactical games involved for positioning and whatnot, but it's not like you can't do that with a range-finder. Might even be fun to watch your crew's shots fly in and hit the target from a thousand meters and up. Maybe it would even encourage  some more communication. Like "I'm gonna be zoomed in so let me know if we're being flanked."

I also never intended for this to be used on everything, just as a practice tool for certain guns that typically get no love because most gunners aren't MLG enough for most pilots to consider letting them try.


rule 3 I teach.

"The impatient pilot is the one that makes the first mistake." Everytime, without fail. Match losses occur with simple choices like that.


That being said at decent level play sniping battles aren't just vets waiting for the other to make a mistake that won't happen.
You position and force the enemy to make a mistake.

That being said I do agree on rangefinder acting like a spot where a spotted ship gets their range relayed until the spot is shaken. The tool does require to be more dynamic. The tool itself however should still act as the name suggests.

A rangefinder and NOTHING MORE.



@egg.

You might have given the concept of ease of use some consideration. But clearly not enough since you clearly don't understand that the guns stats are based around that. And for you completely ignore such a fundamental part of the game's design to then create a point made pointless by the part you ignored renders your whole spiel pointless.

"Hey guy's let walk on water... because it really improves transport options for traversing the seas and rivers. No more waiting to get on ferries and boats, because... walking on water."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 11:06:31 pm by Maximillian Jazzhand »

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

  • Member
  • Salutes: 20
    • [♫]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2016, 12:15:43 am »
If Rangefinder worked all the time and didn't stop working even when you can clearly see the enemy ship, it would be fine.

Offline Omniraptor

  • Member
  • Salutes: 51
    • [Duck]
    • 27 
    • 45
    • 38 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2016, 10:54:52 am »
My goals wasn't to put a player in stand-by mode. If you're taking damage or have three guns on target it's always superior to heal or fire as necessary. The damage boost suggestion was aimed at times when your Pyramjdion is approaching the enemy's blind side, and only two guns can fire, or when your Flak/Lumber Galleon side is shooting. What's the last guy doing? Most likely checking buffs that are already up, or sitting idle.

shouldn't they be repairing engines? if we are not currently taking damage i am always burning kerosene.

Offline The Djinn

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [CA]
    • 25 
    • 41
    • 36 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2016, 11:09:50 am »
Shouldn't they be repairing engines? if we are not currently taking damage i am always burning kerosene.

On a Pyramidion, perhaps. That's not necessarily true of an idle Sniper Galleon though, or a Spire with only two long-range guns.

Basically, my goal with the +damage solution was to open up alternative playstyles (2 long-range weapons + short range weapons, for example, or sheer aggression) for ships that can't necessarily get 3+ guns on a target, which making the trade-off (inability to maximize damage while simultaneously repairing) meaningful.

I think the best solution for the Rangefinder IS something like that (although maybe not this specific implementation), as everything else is...too simplistic, I think. Simply identifying distance doesn't seem strong enough, and the current implementation is...awkward at best.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 11:18:57 am by The Djinn »

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2016, 11:55:08 am »
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.



« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 11:59:02 am by Solidusbucket »

Offline Kamoba

  • Member
  • Salutes: 175
    • [♫]
    • 30 
    • 34
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Robin and Magpie Leather
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2016, 11:56:23 am »
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.
Yes but they don't require someone to spot the target with a spyglass before hand..

Offline The Djinn

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [CA]
    • 25 
    • 41
    • 36 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2016, 12:05:56 pm »
Seems like you want a new tool or for the Rangefinder to be renamed.

Rangefinders exist IRL. They do one thing. They tell the range to target. That is it.

I guess that is correct then, yes. Because just finding the range to the target doesn't seem impactful enough for a tool slot in this game.

However, I will also point out that Spyglasses don't allow you to put targeting indicators on things you see, hitting a gun with a hammer doesn't make it shoot harder, and holding the claw of a Phoenix doesn't make your car turn faster, so I think adding extra mechanics isn't outside the realm of plausibility, given that current equipment doesn't follow it that closely either. :P

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2016, 12:18:15 pm »
I agree with you. I was just pointing out that the rangefinder does not need extra utilities. A lot of ideas I have seen in here seem better suited to an entirely new tool or for the rangefinder to be renamed and revamped into a multi-purpose utility tool.



I also liked Jazzhand's idea to make the iron sites for hades and what not more obvious. I actually like Jazzhand's idea more. In fact. I am going to delete my previous thing in this edit without changing anything else I just typed.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 12:23:07 pm by Solidusbucket »

Offline Crafeksterty

  • Member
  • Salutes: 73
    • [GwTh]
    • 17 
    • 28
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2016, 04:39:20 pm »
The spyglasses spotting ability is simulating the mindset of war tactician and awareness of the enemy in a very simple and cheaty way.
The rangefinder should give the same impression in the way a rangefinder would be helpful in a game as well. But how? And that is the question here.

For those of you who say that the rangefinder is just an extra data tool do not see the waste of space and content the rangefinder is providing. A selection that shouldn't be a selection.
And as a game element, it does absolutely nothing but tell range, but the devs did try to simulate a way it would help a gunner (And that is the circle thing) Which they did not make 100% accurate because of how it can prove to be too good if it did do it 100% accurate.

And you know what... I think the circle thing should be accurate, that way we dont have a SUPER obvious reticle like in practice mode, but a vague one where you have to aim around and find the sweet spot.

What is also interesting (SOMETHING NO ONE MENTIONED) is that the circle thing predicts their speed. So a speeding galleon moving from left to right, you can make the long range shot with the circle thingy without leading the shot yourself.


The trade off here is, Someone has to be Aiming at that specific ship with the Rangefinder in order for the gunners to get any use for it.
But the rangefinder sucks dick simply because of the circle thing is NOT 100% accurate on purpose, And if it did, it still would not guarantee you shots because the speed and altitude of the ship can change by the time the predicted landing of the shot would go there.




So my suggestion is,
-Make the rangefinder helper circle thing better, or more obvious, and/or 100% Accurate.

The cons are,
-Occupies one person
-Gunners searching for a sweet spot
-2/4 people dont have Spyglass OR Pilot has 1 less ship tool


With this, Sniping can be misleading if you are using the helper and being charged at with his movement being too erratic for the rangefinder to help you.
Giving bad habits, but ultimately makes sniping a mind game of movement if it becomes useful.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 04:45:00 pm by Crafeksterty »

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2016, 12:52:25 am »
I always figured the spyglass was a way to keep a ship spotted which, presumbly, a crewmate could see. I figured it acted as a way to keep communication clutter free. Now  the crewmate does not have to constantly relay information to the captain.

Unlike your suggestion that it is some master tactician thing. It is simply a replacement for communication.


Offline OverlordEgg

  • Member
  • Salutes: 2
    • [◕_◕]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2016, 05:30:38 pm »
Let's try something new. Without giving away the function of the rangefinder itself, what do you want it to actually do? To give you an example, I'll start.

I, and it looks like Crafeksterty too want to make a tool that helps improve gunner accuracy and give pilots and gunners the courage to pull themselves away from their hwacha comfort zones.

If we can come to an understanding of how exactly we want the rangefinder to affect gameplay, perhaps we can get around some of our arguing and come to a function we can all agree on.

Offline Letus

  • Member
  • Salutes: 34
    • [SAC]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 33 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2016, 05:39:22 pm »
Telling range is one thing I find useful, the problem is the lack of spot...and as a gunner...I'm not looking through it because I'm using my visual cues of say the drop sight on a lumberjack, of course the problem with some guns and really long distances is you can't see if your shot is over or under very well.

So, personally, I think a range finder would be more usable if you could use it while mounted, but you then lose your gun sights (but your gun's arc doesn't move while you're looking through it.)
That might make it too strong though....

Otherwise, to keep the communication deal
Range and speed of ship.  That way the person range spotting can relay to the gunner, if they are skilled.

The huge downside is each square is 1km, so right now, spotting a ship and finding its range is a matter of pressing "m"

Offline OverlordEgg

  • Member
  • Salutes: 2
    • [◕_◕]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2016, 05:59:16 pm »
Telling range is one thing I find useful, the problem is the lack of spot...and as a gunner...I'm not looking through it because I'm using my visual cues of say the drop sight on a lumberjack, of course the problem with some guns and really long distances is you can't see if your shot is over or under very well.

So, personally, I think a range finder would be more usable if you could use it while mounted, but you then lose your gun sights (but your gun's arc doesn't move while you're looking through it.)
That might make it too strong though....

Otherwise, to keep the communication deal
Range and speed of ship.  That way the person range spotting can relay to the gunner, if they are skilled.

The huge downside is each square is 1km, so right now, spotting a ship and finding its range is a matter of pressing "m"

How is that going to work in practice? I find the idea of using rangefinder while mounted intriguing, but as for the rest, you think someone's going to go "oh they're at 768 meters and moving at 22 meters per second so I should move the gun half a centimeter to the left and one centimeter up?"

Telling players the range, maybe even a ship's speed too, is an interesting idea in theory, especially given the name "Rangefinder," but I think people are getting too hung up on that name. Unless a player is either a mathematical genius savant or already so experienced with the guns they wouldn't need to know more than they can learn from looking at the map anyway, if that's all it does it's hardly helping anyone, and in fact, has technically made the rangefinder less useful than it is now, because you've removed one of its current functions.

I should add again, though, that making the range-finder usable while on the gun itself is an interesting thought, that maybe we should apply to some of the other theories here to see how that changes things. Maybe even make it a gunner tool instead of a pilot one?


I still challenge people to try out the question I posed just above and see where that takes us.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 06:02:54 pm by OverlordEgg »

Offline Daft Loon

  • Member
  • Salutes: 47
    • [◕_◕]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2016, 06:32:23 pm »
Without giving away the function of the rangefinder itself, what do you want it to actually do?

Provide information about the position and/or movement of the target that might help with positioning and/or aiming.


I took it into practice a while ago with a mind to using it for precise positioning of a mine squid, i think that could be a worthwhile niche use of a rangefinder that exclusively finds range but it was far too difficult to keep it on target & reading the range.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 06:35:21 pm by Daft Loon »