Author Topic: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread  (Read 39422 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2016, 06:38:58 pm »
That would be interesting.

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2016, 03:13:25 pm »
The rangefinder as advertised in the tooltip seems like it was meant to help inexperienced gunners land longer range shots on the more difficult guns.

In that regard, I think using the rangefinder should work the way it does currently but instead of the stupid circle thing, add the shot-path indicators for people on the guns like we have in practice mode. Doing this, players experienced with the difficult guns probably won't need it, however it would make longer-range guns like the hades and lumberjack more consistent for the layman. This would allow pilots to take things like hades or heavy flak more often without feeling like they're screwed out of those choices because their crews aren't lvl 45 dedicated gunners, as well as giving would-be gunners and engineers who never get to practice those guns more opportunities to get used to how they work.

It would also add an interesting dynamic to loadout choices. Pilots may ask themselves "can I sacrifice a tool here to help at longer range." or "can one engineer use range-finder while the rest snipe" and so on.

In the end, the really dedicated players won't need it, and in competitive play having that extra tool will be a bonus the vets won't want to sacrifice, but normal matches, the range-finder would allow pilots to practice builds they normally wouldn't attempt due to their fear of everyone missing everything, as well as giving gunners a chance to practice guns they normally never get to fire.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2016, 08:04:35 pm »
1. too easy
2. it will cause lag.
3. difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns. An obvious as hell aiming arc silhouette is just insulting.
4. a simple fix on the aiming notches to make it clearer wtf the notches mean will serve as a far better way to help (without breaking the game).

range finder tells the range in numbers. then you look for that number on the aiming notch on the gun. voila same solution. less obnoxious and far more simple to implement.

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2016, 10:07:29 pm »
1. too easy
2. it will cause lag.
3. difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns. An obvious as hell aiming arc silhouette is just insulting.
4. a simple fix on the aiming notches to make it clearer wtf the notches mean will serve as a far better way to help (without breaking the game).

range finder tells the range in numbers. then you look for that number on the aiming notch on the gun. voila same solution. less obnoxious and far more simple to implement.

Of course it would be easy. Making shooting easier is the whole point of the rangefinder. Assuming the thing could function properly that's effectively what it's already supposed to do. All I'm suggesting is one method of making the information it's trying to provide easier to read.

As far as "it will cause lag" I highly doubt you know that for sure, but that's not a concern in my mind, as I'm trying to think of functions that would make the rangefinder useful assuming they function. I don't know if you think a shooting line would appear for everyone on the ship, but in my mind it would appear only for the person on the gun. Like the circles currently do, and the shot path currently implemented in practice mode does.

"difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns" is simply not true. When planning a strategy of attack on an enemy ship it's always safer to assume they can hit every shot, and when thinking tactically "oh their gun is difficult so I'm fine" is a mistake likely to end in death against experienced crews or even talented low levels. Plus saying "oh no don't use that gun your crew's not good enough" is a great way to make people not want to play the game, and corrals people that already play the game away from those guns. Not only that, but dedicating a pilot slot and taking time to watch people with the binoculars would create it's own balance dynamic. For instance pilots may ask themselves "if I stay back and the ally protects me can I sacrifice the slot to help accuracy?"

And for clarification on what the notches mean, I'm assuming you mean the notches on the lumberjack and hades? Assuming I'm understanding what you're suggesting here, that solution would make the rangefinder pointless for any gun that isn't modeled with notches. It's not like the Lumberjack and Hades are the only guns that are used at long range. For instance, the heavy flak. Not only that, but just telling the range is pretty much useless since one could just open the map and estimate distance from there. Range-finder would still be obsolete since people would say "No need to waste the spyglass or pilot tool slot, just look at the map."

Basically I think a tool intended to help gunners figure out their shots is an interesting idea, it was just implemented insanely poorly. People that don't know any better yet try to take it thinking they can help their gunners aim. That in itself isn't a bad thing in the right hands, but due to a confusing and distracting indicator that doesn't even properly calculate lead half the time it became counter-intuitive and harmful as it wasn't able to pull off what it was supposed to do. What I'm suggesting is a way to make the range-finder clearer so it properly pulls off that function of helping a gunner aim. Adding a simple shot-indicator graphic is intended to replace the vague circle things and portray information in a way that helps the gunner more accurately predict where their shot is going to go, as well as remove the need for the system to make the lead and drop calculations that it currently screws up.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2016, 08:38:00 am »
Quote
"difficulty to shoot is what balances the guns" is simply not true. When planning a strategy of attack on an enemy ship it's always safer to assume they can hit every shot, and when thinking tactically "oh their gun is difficult so I'm fine" is a mistake likely to end in death against experienced crews or even talented low levels. Plus saying "oh no don't use that gun your crew's not good enough" is a great way to make people not want to play the game, and corrals people that already play the game away from those guns. Not only that, but dedicating a pilot slot and taking time to watch people with the binoculars would create it's own balance dynamic. For instance pilots may ask themselves "if I stay back and the ally protects me can I sacrifice the slot to help accuracy?"

This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2016, 12:22:12 pm »
This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

I don't necessarily agree with everything said in the video, and don't agree that lumberjack is always stronger than hwacha, but getting into that would take us away from the point of this discussion. For the sake of argument, would a tool that helps people move away from their hwacha "foo strategy" be such a bad thing?

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2016, 05:58:44 pm »
This is a straw-man argument. Talking about balance from a design perspective is not the same discussion about how to strategize most effectively as a player. And yes, difficulty to shoot is a major factor in dame design and balance, for example the hwacha can be considered a 'foo strategy', large effect for little effort, but is surpassed by more difficult guns like the lumberjack. Video related https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

I don't necessarily agree with everything said in the video, and don't agree that lumberjack is always stronger than hwacha, but getting into that would take us away from the point of this discussion. For the sake of argument, would a tool that helps people move away from their hwacha "foo strategy" be such a bad thing?

You can kill a ship with just a lumberjack a lot faster than you can kill one with just a hwacha.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2016, 06:01:41 pm »
And lumberjack has a much wider effective range than hwatcha

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2016, 07:12:50 pm »
I could sit here and argue opinions about the lumberjack, but I don't quite think this is the thread for that.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2016, 10:01:20 pm »
no... the whole point of the range finder is to find the range....
Its a tool to give a player extra data to improve their shooting. Not act as a goddamn blatant cheat tool.


Your whole spiel about assuming people should hit every shot is asinine. You don't plan for the ideal situation because the enemy is actively trying to not set up the ideal situation for you.

Hence you have to think about the ease of use of guns. Hence you use a gatling over a hades vs a squid. Its easier to hit with many factors adding to it.

Hades can cause fire, has higher dps per clip (and can break faster if it the hits were greater). But all that is useless if can't hit because its an arcing weapon that needs more than just pointing the reticle at the ship.

You ever wonder why the hades has obviously better hull break ability than a gatling? Because you clearly haven't considered it. And how you're asserting your point when you clearly haven't shown said consideration, makes it galling for me to read your spiel to justify your cheat tool.

I mean yeah you can use a hades to hit a squid but it won't be as reliable to hit than a gatling. But if you could. The hades would indeed break that hull faster than a gat, but thats a big gamble. Its a BIG IF.

And if there's one thing I teach and is definitely demonstrated by the countering picking fights with vets. You don't plan around ifs. Scrubs plan around ifs and they fly dumb crap like double flak.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 10:14:21 pm by Maximillian Jazzhand »

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2016, 11:36:19 pm »
no... the whole point of the range finder is to find the range....
Its a tool to give a player extra data to improve their shooting. Not act as a goddamn blatant cheat tool.


Your whole spiel about assuming people should hit every shot is asinine. You don't plan for the ideal situation because the enemy is actively trying to not set up the ideal situation for you.

Hence you have to think about the ease of use of guns. Hence you use a gatling over a hades vs a squid. Its easier to hit with many factors adding to it.

Hades can cause fire, has higher dps per clip (and can break faster if it the hits were greater). But all that is useless if can't hit because its an arcing weapon that needs more than just pointing the reticle at the ship.

You ever wonder why the hades has obviously better hull break ability than a gatling? Because you clearly haven't considered it. And how you're asserting your point when you clearly haven't shown said consideration, makes it galling for me to read your spiel to justify your cheat tool.

I mean yeah you can use a hades to hit a squid but it won't be as reliable to hit than a gatling. But if you could. The hades would indeed break that hull faster than a gat, but thats a big gamble. Its a BIG IF.

And if there's one thing I teach and is definitely demonstrated by the countering picking fights with vets. You don't plan around ifs. Scrubs plan around ifs and they fly dumb crap like double flak.

You say the rangefinder is a tool to find range, but that's pointless. It already does that, and that's clearly not enough. Anyone could open up their map to get a reasonably accurate estimate of distance.

You say it's a tool to give people data to improve their shooting, and that's exactly what I'm suggesting it do.

You call it a "cheat tool" because it helps gunners figure out how to shoot. If we assumed that the circle thing wasn't vague and inaccurate, that's exactly what it already does. Even more because it's supposed to tell people exactly how to lead.

You think it would imbalance the game because people would suddenly start landing their shots, and that's why I suggest it act like it already does and take up a pilot slot while requiring someone to stare at the target.

But clearly I didn't consider any of that. Honestly, I don't understand the aggression. I had an idea, people countered the idea, I defended the idea. So the cycle repeats. That's how intelligent debates work. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I didn't properly word my arguments.  I'm not mad people disagree with me, but it's not like I'm just going to go "oh okay this Jazzhand guy is always right about everything. glad that idea's done for." I'm gonna try and defend my idea. If I'm reading too much into things then you can forget this whole paragraph, but trying to talk down on me saying things like I "clearly haven't considered it." Sounds like I hit a nerve somewhere. Did I offend you? I do sincerely apologize if I did because that was never my intention. That's an honest apology too. I know sarcasm or lack thereof can sometimes get misconstrued over the internet, but if I did actually hit a nerve I really am sorry. Or I'm thinking too much and this paragraph is pointless.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2016, 12:09:43 pm »
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis.  I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?

Djinn's suggestion of bonus damage, I think it's a bad idea (no offense djinn) because it forces people to stare at an enemy, not fun gameplay in the least.
Same for OverlordEgg's idea of practice mode style lasers.. I would really hate to see a laser pointer style sight, or even more blatant a curved arc outline. It would take away 90% of of the fun of shooting stuff.

Whatever we do IMO it should involve clicking once and putting the rangefinder away, not keeping it out. Personally I like Geo's revised suggestion https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,7397.msg124783.html#msg124783
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 12:16:31 pm by Omniraptor »

Offline OverlordEgg

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2016, 12:36:32 pm »
Rangefinder is useful for checking whether a ship is outside maximum range. Primarily for guns like artemis.  I really don't want to have optimal gameplay consist of literally staring at someone doing nothing. Spyglass is ok, you click on them and get back to doing fun stuff. Rangefinder you keep staring and doing nothing, how is that engaging at all?

Isn't that what sniping builds at the moment currently are? Staring at someone while your gunners snipe? I mean, sure, there's all sorts of tactical games involved for positioning and whatnot, but it's not like you can't do that with a range-finder. Might even be fun to watch your crew's shots fly in and hit the target from a thousand meters and up. Maybe it would even encourage  some more communication. Like "I'm gonna be zoomed in so let me know if we're being flanked."

I also never intended for this to be used on everything, just as a practice tool for certain guns that typically get no love because most gunners aren't MLG enough for most pilots to consider letting them try.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2016, 01:00:29 pm »
Djinn's suggestion of bonus damage, I think it's a bad idea (no offense djinn) because it forces people to stare at an enemy, not fun gameplay in the least.

No offense taken!

My goals wasn't to put a player in stand-by mode. If you're taking damage or have three guns on target it's always superior to heal or fire as necessary. The damage boost suggestion was aimed at times when your Pyramjdion is approaching the enemy's blind side, and only two guns can fire, or when your Flak/Lumber Galleon side is shooting. What's the last guy doing? Most likely checking buffs that are already up, or sitting idle.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: The Everyone Think Really Hard And Make Rangefinder Useful Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2016, 05:09:09 pm »
Most likely standing on the spear.