Author Topic: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice  (Read 9607 times)

Offline Jamini

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2016, 12:35:24 pm »
Really, the main issue stems from the fact that all gunner tools are ammo.

Very few guns need more than one ammo type, and most organized ships have set guns for each crewman. This allows a single engineer to be as effective as a gunner... or more so with a buff hammer... on a great number of guns that only need a single ammo type.

A simple solution would be to introduce a set of non-ammo gunner tools. Something that can boost the gun in a similar manner to the buff hammer/chemspray. An engineer gunning a gun can at most take one tool, while a gunner could be much more versatile. Not just temporary buffs (stamina), but something that could be applied consistently. Ideally each would stack with gunner stamina, so that it would be ideal to have at least one gunner (or more for certain load-outs) at all times. All gunner buff items would be mutually exclusive, but stack with the buff hammer.

Example thoughts:

Arc Hook - This tool increases the horizontal arc and decreases the vertical arc of any gun it hits for 5 seconds with a 5 second repair cooldown.
Winch - This tool increases the vertical arc and decreases the horizontal arc of any gun it hits for 5 seconds, with a 5 second repair cooldown.
Spring Loader - This tool decreases the reload and mag size of any gun it hits by 25% for 5 seconds, with a 5 second repair cooldown.
Stablizer - This tool decreases jitter and dramatically slows traverse speed on any gun it hits by 25% for 5 seconds, with a 5 second repair cooldown.

An engineer would not be able to use these tools as well as a gunner, due to the fact that they would not get ammo types. While a gunner could use both a special ammo and a tool to buff their own gun.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2016, 06:59:13 pm »

Here's the issue: buffs are permanent while stamina is temporary. This would benefit buff engi much more than gunner. Their guns would turn faster, have better arcs, and higher dps from the reload bonus. In order for gunner to compete they'd need a sizable damage boost, but this isn't balanced because gunner stamina is temporary

Take the gat for example. It has a long empty clip time so you'd need to use a lot of stamina. The hwatcha however has a short empty time which means you'd only use it for a few seconds. Or the mine launcher where you'd use stamina for just a single instant

The current system works because turn speed, arcs, and reload are good temporary utility bonuses while damage is a simple permanent bonus. The gunner is for utility and gunner stamina reflects that. If +20% dmg is too much then the answer is to adjust it - not change everything else

You are making no sense here, and are only focusing on a single aspect of the suggested change. You are also ignoring how stamina actually recharges. Guns turning faster, having better arcs, and reloading faster would buff an engineer more? As opposed to the current buff that makes DPS gunners obsolete? And at the same time you are saying the change to stamina would make gunners overpowered on just the hwacha because reasons.

If you are so afraid of Burst ammo, then add some jitter to it. Problem solved (falloff is a better solution). But, but then engineers would have a harder time shooting it!!! They are engineers. They are supposed to have a harder time shooting guns than actual gunners. What a concept.

As for longer firing guns like Gatling, breaking things recharges stamina. Gatling is good at breaking things. Gatling with more damage and tighter recoil breaks more things. Stamina recharges faster. Not fast enough? Change it. They just have arbitrary numbers as it is. Also of note for the bad example you gave, Stamina currently lasts about the same time as unloading a Greased ammo clip. When shooting at hull and components with buffed Greased, things break fast enough to give you a full clip of stamina firing. Other guns could have a better argument against it, but still not a good one. The same argument can be made for the arc changing. It benefits fast shooting guns over longer clip guns. It benefits fast moving guns with good arcs over slow moving guns with narrow arcs. What is your point? It just seems like you don't like the idea of temporary damage increase that removes the buffgunner class from the game. No one is going to take a buffgineer over a stamina DPS gunner because the buffgineer has a little better arc ability. People will take them to supplement the gunner in the same way they supplement the pilot or another engineer. They will also take them for creative builds using the arc changes, which is far more useful than DPS increase.

Gunner stamina, as it is, is a melee thing. You can use it for arcs or use it for reload. Not both. The reload bonus is minuscule on long range guns. The arc changing is practically useless at range. These changes would make it all around better.

For the record, I would make the change to the arcs smaller than gunner stamina and leave the movement boost about the same. Not sure about reload. I would also increase the buff duration since it is no longer an active player tool, meaning it will be used more by players other than the one doing the buffing (hint, the gunner).

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2016, 08:59:02 pm »
Yes. Faster turning with better arcs and quicker reload would buff an engi more than a +20% dmg gunner

I'll explain but first: No, nerfing burst ammo just to counteract the recoil reduction isn't an option. That's how you break balance. I already covered why a blanket recoil reduction cannot be implemented so go email Muse or ask someone else and maybe they'll explain it to you better

Gunner stamina is for increasing arcs and turn speed, OR reload. At long range you use it for reload and close range for arcs. Faster reload DOES benefit long range guns. By using stamina for the merc reload you've temporarily increased dps MORE than a buff engi! This is the true for all guns with a reload less than 6.5 seconds and an empty clip time less than 1.25 * reload time

Gunner stamina is used tactically depending on the situation and gun: either during the reload or while shooting. Under your proposal you'd always use it at the beginning of shooting which makes it less interesting. Stamina refills 8.3% per component destroyed. This benefits disable weapons but isn't significant for piercing weapons which likely break only one (or no) component during their whole clip. So for this proposal on gat/hades you use it the whole clip and break their armor but next clip you presumably won't have nearly as much stamina. For hwatcha/carro however you'd only use it for a few seconds and have an endless supply of stamina. Same for the mine launcher where you use it for just a single instant. This removes tactics from stamina and makes it less interesting/fun IMO

Giving gunner stamina effects to a buff engi would give them higher dps than a gunner with +20% dmg. For almost every gunner gun the faster reload increases dps more than the extra damage. I'd take this over a gunner any day and you're right it would make way for a lot of OP arc builds. Like has been said countless times: gunners are for utility and engis are for efficiency. I won't argue the +20% damage because I almost always bring 3 engis, but most don't. Most competitive players use gunners on most builds because they find the utility of a gunner more useful than the efficiency of a buff engi. Other times they bring buff engis because efficiency becomes more important than utility. That's the game design and I don't think the roles should be swapped
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 09:32:16 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2016, 09:50:44 pm »

I'll explain but first: No, nerfing burst ammo just to counteract the recoil reduction isn't an option.

And this is why? Because you say so? Heavy clip was nerfed, rightfully so, for the exact same reason. It was too powerful on one gun with negligible effects on all others. Burst is used primarily on two guns. One has no recoil so would have no effect. The other is OP with Burst. It should be nerfed regardless of any stamina or buff hammer changes.

You are still wrong. Your explanations are weak. If reload increased DPS too much, then reduce it by half current gunner speed, just as I said the arcs should be less since they are 'permanent'. These are simple solutions.

I personally find the game less fun and more complicated with the addition of stamina. Many others agree with me. Many agree with you. It is an opinion-based non-argument.

I have emailed Muse on these things previously (falloff damage and stamina), and will now email them about a needed Burst nerf. Thank you for reminding me.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2016, 09:58:16 pm »
Whether burst should be nerfed is irrelevant to the gunner jitter proposal because the latter isn't possible

Quote from: Richard
3. Give the gunner a 'tunnel vision' visual effect, slightly zoomed in with a dark haze around the edges
4. Possibly muffle all other game sounds.

These can be added as is and would be a good addition to gunner stamina
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 10:24:11 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2016, 04:30:45 pm »
Still, I'm not sure that's a good solution to the problem.

Why not?

Mainly because I'm opposed to design that lets players trap themselves. I don't like the option to take no repair tools, either in current GoI or in this proposal, because a ship needs them to function.

you could always just include a popup when the user attempts to save an obviously bad loadout. just as a reminder they are forced to click ok on. and a checkbox to never show the reminder again