Author Topic: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice  (Read 9610 times)

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2016, 07:47:00 am »
already suggested long ago that all other crews revert to the old ammo change mechanic of being trapped on the gun to load ammo.

While the gunner has the exclusive ability to quick reload.

Being trapped on the gun or just needing to jump on the gun last second?

If the latter then I'm all in for this too.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2016, 10:19:35 am »
already suggested long ago that all other crews revert to the old ammo change mechanic of being trapped on the gun to load ammo.

While the gunner has the exclusive ability to quick reload.

This idea, I like this idea.

This would be a good balance and I had mentioned this as soon as the auto reload ability was included, but it's too late now. People like the auto reload and it would be frustrating to have it stop working

Keep in mind that players use gunners in competitive. In the last SCS almost all ships had gunners and I only saw triple engi on squids and a brawl mobula

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2016, 10:20:09 am »
Weird thought...

What if Buffing just became a core part of the Gunner / Engineer class, and was pushed into a pre-combat role exclusively?

By that I mean remove the Buff Hammer entirely, and allow Gunners and Engineers to hit components repeatedly with the Spanner or Wrench when they're at 100% health to "over-build" them, which triggers the buff. Gunners are the only ones who can buff guns, and Engineers can buff other components (Engines, Armor, Balloons).

It might require the introduction of a new Engineer tool to make tool choice have some deeper choices again, but I think it might make the Gunner effective and distinct while not causing tool slot confusion. It will also help the Gunner have more responsibility on the ship (pre-buffing weapons), and help solidify the buff into a pre-combat tool and not a mid-combat tool. Finally, it has a nice side of effect of discouraging Mallet Gunners, which are a bane to my existence and unfortunately more common among newer players than I'd like.  :P

Thoughts?

EDIT: Might even be worth re-thinking the gun buff in this case. Maybe to make guns more durable instead of giving them more damage? Maybe to give them a bit of both (+5% damage, +25% durability, for example)?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 10:25:50 am by The Djinn »

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #33 on: February 29, 2016, 11:45:16 am »
already suggested long ago that all other crews revert to the old ammo change mechanic of being trapped on the gun to load ammo.

While the gunner has the exclusive ability to quick reload.

Being trapped on the gun or just needing to jump on the gun last second?

If the latter then I'm all in for this too.

If I recall it was coded that the ammo only changed to default right on the moment of the reload so I guess the latter.

Isn't coding it just a matter of adding a variable of detecting whether a gunner class initiated  the reload or not? Hence when a non gunner jumps on mid reload cycle and changes the  ammo, the guns goes nop non gunner initiated the final ammo type if non gunner crew leaves, default ammo. That being thinking about it for a sec. The gunner still needs to initiate the reload regardless (hence he has to actually go to the gun), if the engie changes that ammo I struggle to see the issue of the ammo change mid reload cycle by non gunner. The fact that the gunner initiated auto-reload gives enough utility to the gunner


And frankly blackie I don't give a crap what a bunch of babies think (even if they are lvl 45). Proper balance is the final goal and change is inevitable to that end. Because frankly its clear to me some "vets" don't really care about fairness, but more about making their meta more OP. And I don't care for it.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 11:47:44 am by Maximillian Jazzhand »

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #34 on: February 29, 2016, 01:48:35 pm »
Last time I participated in a "Gunners are useless" discussion was before the Stamina patch. Back then the extra DPS of a buffed gun was sometimes more desirable than the flexibility of different optimal ammos for different ranges. Gunners were still useful when you needed one crew member to shoot more than one gun. The stamina patch with its reduced reload time have made gunners optimal for slow reloading weapons like the Manticore. I am happy with where the gunner sits right now in the current meta.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #35 on: February 29, 2016, 03:44:22 pm »
And frankly blackie I don't give a crap what a bunch of babies think (even if they are lvl 45). Proper balance is the final goal and change is inevitable to that end. Because frankly its clear to me some "vets" don't really care about fairness, but more about making their meta more OP. And I don't care for it.

Who's defining proper balance? The consensus is that gunners are useful since stamina and the meta game reflects that. When stamina was first released I tried to convince Muse to increase the gunner stamina recharge rate not to benefit me (I don't use gunners) but because I thought that was fair. Muse didn't think so and neither do they think that auto load should be reserved for gunners. The won't change auto load because it's an established feature and would be unpopular to change

The top competitive players bring gunners on many but not all ships. They've made it clear that gunners have use, but that there's also times to bring a buff engi. I don't see the problem

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #36 on: February 29, 2016, 07:46:44 pm »
I never liked the auto ammo reload function. I argued against it when it was implemented, but I have grown used to it as an engi. It's stronger than people realize, an certainly wouldn't hurt gunners if it were to be gunner exclusive

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #37 on: February 29, 2016, 07:52:16 pm »
It made double hwacha galleons far too easy to manage. But if it must exist to be exploited. At least let it be done exclusively by gunners.

Offline Chase.

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2016, 10:35:11 am »
Just my 2 cents:
- I agree that gunners are underused, and I would like to see changes that make them more viable.
- The 3-engineer-setup somewhat destroys the athmosphere for me. The (one) "engineer" actually should feel like they fullfil a specific role in the team.
- Likewise, I think gunners should adhere to their identity, i.e. shoot guns. If you give them a repair buff, gameplay-wise you would just have two different kinds of engineers.
- Giving gunners an increased shooting angle is a nice buff, but having this ability only temporary through stamina always felt weird. Also, gunner stamina is too complicated, as it has too many uses: faster reloading / more dps / wider angle.

My suggestion would be:
Make the increase in shooting angle permanent. This would simplify the use of gunner stamina and give gunners a reasonble boost to be used over engineers.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2016, 11:24:43 am »
- I agree that gunners are underused, and I would like to see changes that make them more viable.

My suggestion would be:
Make the increase in shooting angle permanent. This would simplify the use of gunner stamina and give gunners a reasonble boost to be used over engineers.

Why do you think gunners are underused? Most ships have gunners and when they don't it's because they're using a simple gun that doesn't need multiple ammos. Permanent arcs (shooting angles) won't make gunners more useful on simple guns like gat than the extra damage, buffs, and repairs from a buff engi. The gun arcs were designed years before gunner stamina was implemented

Gunner is used on guns like hwatcha because despite only needing one ammo (burst), the extra arcs from gunner stamina is a great bonus. Making the extra arcs permanent would only buff guns the gunner is already used on. This would break balance because all guns would have 20% better vertical arcs which benefits some guns much more than others. It's a common complaint that it's frustrating enough fighting a hwatcha with the current gunner stamina and it'd be infuriating to do so with permanent arc bonuses
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 11:31:03 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2016, 11:40:58 am »
Why do you think gunners are underused? Most ships have gunners and when they don't it's because they're using a simple gun that doesn't need multiple ammos. Permanent arcs (shooting angles) won't make gunners more useful on simple guns like gat than the extra damage, buffs, and repairs from a buff engi. The gun arcs were designed years before gunner stamina was implemented

Gunner is used on guns like hwatcha because despite only needing one ammo (burst), the extra arcs from gunner stamina is a great bonus. Making the extra arcs permanent would only buff guns the gunner is already used on. This would break balance because all guns would have 20% better vertical arcs which benefits some guns much more than others. It's a common complaint that it's frustrating enough fighting a hwatcha with the current gunner stamina and it'd be infuriating to do so with permanent arc bonuses

Agreed.

Which begs a question: what CAN a gunner improve that will give them a more permanent place? Let's look at a list of options and figure it out from there.

Off the top of my head:
  • Damage
  • Reload Speedl
  • Swap Buff to Gunner (either as a tool or a built-in feature like my previous suggestion)
  • Second Engineer tool
  • ...list continues?

I'd like to avoid the second Engineer tool direction unless it's required to bring them up to par, as that blurs the lines a bit too much for my tastes. Other thoughts on mechanics we could use and/or add?


Offline nhbearit

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2016, 06:23:59 pm »
Just get rid of gunner entirely. Make a single, unified "Crew" class. People who want to call themselves "gunners" still can. It would open up new combinations for crew (and consequently ship) loadouts. We might even start to see something new. Some of the tools might need re-balanced. We'll deal with that when we come to it though.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2016, 06:38:04 pm »
Just get rid of gunner entirely. Make a single, unified "Crew" class. People who want to call themselves "gunners" still can. It would open up new combinations for crew (and consequently ship) loadouts. We might even start to see something new. Some of the tools might need re-balanced. We'll deal with that when we come to it though.

If you gave it three engineer and two-three gunner slots it could work. I'd be worried about only 2 engineer tools though.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2016, 06:50:53 pm »
If I'm counting correctly everyone gets 5 tools. Gunner has 1 pilot, 1 engineer, and 3 gunner tools.. right? so just combine the engineer and gunner tools. "Crew" would have one pilot tool, and their choice of 4 crew tools. (and yes, ammos are tools)

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2016, 07:02:19 pm »
If I'm counting correctly everyone gets 5 tools. Gunner has 1 pilot, 1 engineer, and 3 gunner tools.. right? so just combine the engineer and gunner tools. "Crew" would have one pilot tool, and their choice of 4 crew tools. (and yes, ammos are tools)

That's sort of a non-choice though. Mallet/Spanner would be taken on EVERYONE.

Heck...few guns need more than 2 ammo types, and many only really run one. Mallet/Spanner/Chem+Ammo/Ammo and Mallet/Spanner/Chem/Buff+Ammo are pretty much ALWAYS your best options.