Mine-laying Ships

[Newbluud]

So, after rocking sniper loadouts (artemis + merc pyra, art/merc/art mobula) for a while, as well as the occasional game as a carronade fish/metamidion, I decided to try something new.

I rocked a squid on KotH paritan and proceeded to get my world rocked by a munker. Now, while we still won the game, we spent a huge majority of it getting blown into church spires, buildings and rubble. Needless to say, I was pretty salty.

We tried out a mine-laying squid of our own on the same map recently, after seeing just how effective area denial can be, but wound up posing virtually no threat to the metamidion duo opposing us. Not only did we miss with most of our mines, it seemed like the only people hitting our mines was us.

I'm not the highest level, but ain't the worst pilot either (I will admit that I'm not so hot on the squid). I felt like the mines had an AoE trigger that was wrecking us. Is that true?

Also, general tips/tricks for a mine-centric ship build. Which ship to fly? What loadouts for crew/pilot? What other guns are needed to synergise with mine launchers?

And how do I make sure I don't skim mines on the side of the ship where I am blind as pilot? (Specific to squid)

Just help me not be scrub pls.

[Kamoba]

Link to a Munker guide:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5369.0.html

Basic mines rule number one:
Your gunner must be confident in the use of Mines, very often have I met gunners who say they're confident to shoot with any gun, even mine launchers and then they shoot it poorly.
The mine launcher requires the mines be launched so that the mine deploys, not direct hits, many gunners not familiar shoot direct hits, which is mostly ineffective in comparison to the AOE effects of a deployed mine.
The gunners also need to be aware of what's going on in the fight, if you have a gunner who aims.shots at an enemy which is running away, unless they get the mine to deploy ahead of the enemy, what they end up doing is adding obstacles which block your path to chase.

Mine ships should really only be used with a crew you're familiar with, if you use mine ships with randoms, the chances are against you, either you'll have players that don't shoot the mines effectively or a grumpy engineer who complains that mines were a bad choice....
The rest can be found in the guide above

[DJ Logicalia]

The Mine Launcher is one of the hardest guns to shoot and pilot for, but is also very rewarding. The squid is probably not the ship you want to learn mines with. Squids are all about speed, and mines require methodical precision, something hard to get without a lot of practice. I recommend more practice and maybe trying a Junker next time. Eventually, your crew CAN get the hang of things

[Newbluud]

Basic mines rule number one:
Your gunner must be confident in the use of Mines, very often have I met gunners who say they're confident to shoot with any gun, even mine launchers and then they shoot it poorly.
The mine launcher requires the mines be launched so that the mine deploys, not direct hits, many gunners not familiar shoot direct hits, which is mostly ineffective in comparison to the AOE effects of a deployed mine.

Yes, that might partly explain an issue we had. We scored one or two good hits with AoE (we could tell through hitmarkers), but direct hits were a huge issue. I guess practice will do us some service in that regard.

Link to a Munker guide:
The gunners also need to be aware of what's going on in the fight, if you have a gunner who aims.shots at an enemy which is running away, unless they get the mine to deploy ahead of the enemy, what they end up doing is adding obstacles which block your path to chase.

Something we should have thought about through common sense, but that stuff can be hard for a relatively newbie crew (we all use voice comms, take advice, use appropriate ammunition and - at least as far as I can tell - pick our targets well, but lack the experience of longer standing players). We were stressing out like mad, flying around way too fast and generally panicking due to the huge unfamiliarity of the build we had.

Mine ships should really only be used with a crew you're familiar with, if you use mine ships with randoms, the chances are against you, either you'll have players that don't shoot the mines effectively or a grumpy engineer who complains that mines were a bad choice....
The rest can be found in the guide above

We were a clan ship with a teamspeak channel going. Y'won't find better communication than a Brit, and German and two Muricans screaming incoherently at each other while raging over hitting our own mines for the seventieth time.

Oh, that munker guide is super helpful, but feels very limited to that very specific build. I was look for a more open discussion in mine avoidance, use, and applicability on different ships, in particular the squid.

[Newbluud]

The squid is probably not the ship you want to learn mines with. Squids are all about speed, and mines require methodical precision, something hard to get without a lot of practice. I recommend more practice and maybe trying a Junker next time. Eventually, your crew CAN get the hang of things

Squids are really a bad call, huh? I saw one use the speed to get to a point and mine the crap out of it very early in a KotH game. Map was Desert Scrap. It cost our team direly (although we had the classic, all hwacha, lvl 2 galleon pilot). Is it not a viable tactic against anything other than the freshest of players?

[The Mann]

If you look for me in game, I will happily show you the sheer power of the Munk.

just add me in game and PM me as soon as I log on.

[The Mann]

in KOTH, Squids can have a miner on the back, other guns disable, Flamer and Barking Dogs are popular choices.

[Newbluud]

If you look for me in game, I will happily show you the sheer power of the Munk.

just add me in game and PM me as soon as I log on.

I may just do that. I have experienced the power of a munker with an experienced crew before. Honestly, it felt like a pez dispenser dishing out pure salt. The name calling was real. Thankfully, I kept my fingers away from the match chat button.

in KOTH, Squids can have a miner on the back, other guns disable, Flamer and Barking Dogs are popular choices.

I think my go-to squid is gat/woof gun/flamer, however that is subject to change as I learn. It has just been what has worked best for us, a crew that is used to sniping pyras (and metamidions from our truly novice days). So, pure mine squid isn't the best call? Even if it provides a wall of death around the point if deployed correctly? I'm not questioning your knowledge, I'm asking to learn .

[Alistair MacBain]

A Mine Squid can work. Thats not the issue. Its just pretty hard to make work of as youre much more likely to run in your own mines. A junker with its mainly sidewards guns is much less likely to hit his own mines.
In terms of pure firepower a mine junker beats a mine squid due to the trifecta potential. In terms of maneuverability the squid is obv the winner.

[Byron Cavendish]

The key to the munker is knowing the exact range of lesmok mines and normal ammo mines. It has a high demand of pilot knowledge. All crew (including the pilot) need to be familiar with how to shoot with lesmok and normal. Your gunner needs to know that plus burst and lochnagar range and use.

 Here is a demonstration of pain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdzbXZC0XGo ...me trying to kill my ally (his perspective)

[Kamoba]

Pure mine squid is a viable Mine ship build, but very tough to master, any squid loadout is tough to master in honesty.

[We were a clan ship with a teamspeak channel going. Y'won't find better communication than a Brit, and German and two Muricans screaming incoherently at each other while raging over hitting our own mines for the seventieth time.

Sounds like most competitive teams I've flown with and against.

As for open discussion, you'll find it appearing here in this thread

Mine squid can be very effective, a good match up with tar, if you're being chased and tar the enemy well, drop a mine in the tar!
But mostly the squid mines rely on the squid bi-fecta, flying in the enemies blind spots (because you cant take too much damage)

The launcher does not have great downward arcs but gunners can use the projectile arc to shoot quite low!
Practice in a few matches and set yourself different challanges!

Spend match one only flying low, stay below the enemy galleons arcs and find the sweet spot in distance where the mines land well, give your gunners the same practice too!
 be sure to have your engineer bring the right ammo for the rages you will use, if you're not going to be in the enemies face, bring lesmok so they can reach the target and use default as a closer range alternative.
Spend the second round up high! Stay above the enemy and force yourself to spend the match holding the high ground, get used to how the mines drop, and just how high you can afford to stay, again mix and match those ammunitions for the situation. If you're bringing the same ammos each time it'll make it harder for you as a pilot to adapt to the ammo, when its easier to adapt the ammo for the tactics.
Spend the third match mixing both around and using the vertical mobility to confuse and disorientate the enemy.

This.method of practice does mean you will loose a lot, but it'll be much more useful to you to learn the guns than trying to "win"

[Newbluud]

A Mine Squid can work. Thats not the issue. Its just pretty hard to make work of as youre much more likely to run in your own mines. A junker with its mainly sidewards guns is much less likely to hit his own mines.
In terms of pure firepower a mine junker beats a mine squid due to the trifecta potential. In terms of maneuverability the squid is obv the winner.

Alright, cool. I do like that, other than certain weapon combos (met a level 1 galleon with four minotaurs), a huge variety of loadouts can be made viable with the right crewing, flying and team comp. The lack of absolutely dead-set winning meta makes this game super replayable to me. I'll keep working at it.

The key to the munker is knowing the exact range of lesmok mines and normal ammo mines. It has a high demand of pilot knowledge. All crew (including the pilot) need to be familiar with how to shoot with lesmok and normal. Your gunner needs to know that plus burst and lochnagar range and use.

 Here is a demonstration of pain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdzbXZC0XGo ...me trying to kill my ally (his perspective)

I'll watch the demonstration when I'm not posting from work, m80 . So, yes, It would pay for me to get comfortable with effective mine ranges as the pilot, and get within the goldilocks zone, so to speak, as quickly as possible. Things like that do not occur to you when you decide to steal a loadout that beat you and play it without enough research. We had an idea about how it worked, but our strategies and skills were miles out. I just hope the rest of my crew are prepared for the incoming grind to get that versatility. 

Sounds like most competitive teams I've flown with and against.

Yeah, we're clearly comp material already  .

As for the rest of your advice (save quoting it all), I think we'll give it a shot. Hopefully my crew will understand that we are learning. I want to git gud, and I feel we're pretty decent for our level so far, but we're a long way off being "good" by community standards. Thanks for the advice. I'll keep an eye on this thread for more mine tips and cheatsheets.

[Carn]

If you want to learn to shoot mines, I can help with that. One very important thing for your gunner to know is when, and when not, to use lochnagar.

[BlackenedPies]

I regularly fly a mine carronade mine squid with mines front and rear. It's important that your gunner brings correct ammo: lesmok heatsink/incendiary lochnagar so they can shoot at 4 ranges (using regular too). Engineers on mines should bring lesmok. Mines detonate at 20 meters away from ships so try to aim at their sides not directly at them. 3 mine mobulas can work well and my favorite was 3 mine pyra.

The mine pyra had the advantage over munker of being very easy to crew and much faster speed. Attempt to always engage at an angle to get all 3 in arc. Rear gun is flare gun of course. I often switched the left gun to a carronade with less experienced miners or AI. I'm not sure I'd recommend mine pyra since the pyra nerf.

For junker I enjoyed mine on the front and paired with gat-banshee left carro-gat right for close range maps like Labyrinth, but the best mine position is on the bottom for the gunner. My favorite mine junker is the meta 3 engi setup with a wrench buff chem lesmok top, spanner mallet chem lesmok front, and spanner mallet buff lesmok bottom. The left side is 3 mine and right side gat mortar just in case you gotta kill em. Buffed junker and buffed mines OP. Important note that the front engi is in charged of keeping the armor repaired from below.

[Carn]

It should be noted that its viable to swap incendiary for charged. Charged mines create a lot of damage.