Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => The Classroom => Q&A => Topic started by: Newbluud on June 17, 2015, 06:05:28 am
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So, after rocking sniper loadouts (artemis + merc pyra, art/merc/art mobula) for a while, as well as the occasional game as a carronade fish/metamidion, I decided to try something new.
I rocked a squid on KotH paritan and proceeded to get my world rocked by a munker. Now, while we still won the game, we spent a huge majority of it getting blown into church spires, buildings and rubble. Needless to say, I was pretty salty.
We tried out a mine-laying squid of our own on the same map recently, after seeing just how effective area denial can be, but wound up posing virtually no threat to the metamidion duo opposing us. Not only did we miss with most of our mines, it seemed like the only people hitting our mines was us.
I'm not the highest level, but ain't the worst pilot either (I will admit that I'm not so hot on the squid). I felt like the mines had an AoE trigger that was wrecking us. Is that true?
Also, general tips/tricks for a mine-centric ship build. Which ship to fly? What loadouts for crew/pilot? What other guns are needed to synergise with mine launchers?
And how do I make sure I don't skim mines on the side of the ship where I am blind as pilot? (Specific to squid)
Just help me not be scrub pls.
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Link to a Munker guide:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5369.0.html
Basic mines rule number one:
Your gunner must be confident in the use of Mines, very often have I met gunners who say they're confident to shoot with any gun, even mine launchers and then they shoot it poorly.
The mine launcher requires the mines be launched so that the mine deploys, not direct hits, many gunners not familiar shoot direct hits, which is mostly ineffective in comparison to the AOE effects of a deployed mine.
The gunners also need to be aware of what's going on in the fight, if you have a gunner who aims.shots at an enemy which is running away, unless they get the mine to deploy ahead of the enemy, what they end up doing is adding obstacles which block your path to chase.
Mine ships should really only be used with a crew you're familiar with, if you use mine ships with randoms, the chances are against you, either you'll have players that don't shoot the mines effectively or a grumpy engineer who complains that mines were a bad choice....
The rest can be found in the guide above :)
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The Mine Launcher is one of the hardest guns to shoot and pilot for, but is also very rewarding. The squid is probably not the ship you want to learn mines with. Squids are all about speed, and mines require methodical precision, something hard to get without a lot of practice. I recommend more practice and maybe trying a Junker next time. Eventually, your crew CAN get the hang of things
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Basic mines rule number one:
Your gunner must be confident in the use of Mines, very often have I met gunners who say they're confident to shoot with any gun, even mine launchers and then they shoot it poorly.
The mine launcher requires the mines be launched so that the mine deploys, not direct hits, many gunners not familiar shoot direct hits, which is mostly ineffective in comparison to the AOE effects of a deployed mine.
Yes, that might partly explain an issue we had. We scored one or two good hits with AoE (we could tell through hitmarkers), but direct hits were a huge issue. I guess practice will do us some service in that regard.
Link to a Munker guide:
The gunners also need to be aware of what's going on in the fight, if you have a gunner who aims.shots at an enemy which is running away, unless they get the mine to deploy ahead of the enemy, what they end up doing is adding obstacles which block your path to chase.
Something we should have thought about through common sense, but that stuff can be hard for a relatively newbie crew (we all use voice comms, take advice, use appropriate ammunition and - at least as far as I can tell - pick our targets well, but lack the experience of longer standing players). We were stressing out like mad, flying around way too fast and generally panicking due to the huge unfamiliarity of the build we had.
Mine ships should really only be used with a crew you're familiar with, if you use mine ships with randoms, the chances are against you, either you'll have players that don't shoot the mines effectively or a grumpy engineer who complains that mines were a bad choice....
The rest can be found in the guide above :)
We were a clan ship with a teamspeak channel going. Y'won't find better communication than a Brit, and German and two Muricans screaming incoherently at each other while raging over hitting our own mines for the seventieth time.
Oh, that munker guide is super helpful, but feels very limited to that very specific build. I was look for a more open discussion in mine avoidance, use, and applicability on different ships, in particular the squid.
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The squid is probably not the ship you want to learn mines with. Squids are all about speed, and mines require methodical precision, something hard to get without a lot of practice. I recommend more practice and maybe trying a Junker next time. Eventually, your crew CAN get the hang of things
Squids are really a bad call, huh? I saw one use the speed to get to a point and mine the crap out of it very early in a KotH game. Map was Desert Scrap. It cost our team direly (although we had the classic, all hwacha, lvl 2 galleon pilot). Is it not a viable tactic against anything other than the freshest of players?
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If you look for me in game, I will happily show you the sheer power of the Munk.
just add me in game and PM me as soon as I log on.
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in KOTH, Squids can have a miner on the back, other guns disable, Flamer and Barking Dogs are popular choices.
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If you look for me in game, I will happily show you the sheer power of the Munk.
just add me in game and PM me as soon as I log on.
I may just do that. I have experienced the power of a munker with an experienced crew before. Honestly, it felt like a pez dispenser dishing out pure salt. The name calling was real. Thankfully, I kept my fingers away from the match chat button.
in KOTH, Squids can have a miner on the back, other guns disable, Flamer and Barking Dogs are popular choices.
I think my go-to squid is gat/woof gun/flamer, however that is subject to change as I learn. It has just been what has worked best for us, a crew that is used to sniping pyras (and metamidions from our truly novice days). So, pure mine squid isn't the best call? Even if it provides a wall of death around the point if deployed correctly? I'm not questioning your knowledge, I'm asking to learn :).
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A Mine Squid can work. Thats not the issue. Its just pretty hard to make work of as youre much more likely to run in your own mines. A junker with its mainly sidewards guns is much less likely to hit his own mines.
In terms of pure firepower a mine junker beats a mine squid due to the trifecta potential. In terms of maneuverability the squid is obv the winner.
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The key to the munker is knowing the exact range of lesmok mines and normal ammo mines. It has a high demand of pilot knowledge. All crew (including the pilot) need to be familiar with how to shoot with lesmok and normal. Your gunner needs to know that plus burst and lochnagar range and use.
Here is a demonstration of pain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdzbXZC0XGo ...me trying to kill my ally (his perspective)
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Pure mine squid is a viable Mine ship build, but very tough to master, any squid loadout is tough to master in honesty. :)
[We were a clan ship with a teamspeak channel going. Y'won't find better communication than a Brit, and German and two Muricans screaming incoherently at each other while raging over hitting our own mines for the seventieth time.
Sounds like most competitive teams I've flown with and against. 8)
As for open discussion, you'll find it appearing here in this thread :)
Mine squid can be very effective, a good match up with tar, if you're being chased and tar the enemy well, drop a mine in the tar! :)
But mostly the squid mines rely on the squid bi-fecta, flying in the enemies blind spots (because you cant take too much damage)
The launcher does not have great downward arcs but gunners can use the projectile arc to shoot quite low!
Practice in a few matches and set yourself different challanges!
Spend match one only flying low, stay below the enemy galleons arcs and find the sweet spot in distance where the mines land well, give your gunners the same practice too!
be sure to have your engineer bring the right ammo for the rages you will use, if you're not going to be in the enemies face, bring lesmok so they can reach the target and use default as a closer range alternative.
Spend the second round up high! Stay above the enemy and force yourself to spend the match holding the high ground, get used to how the mines drop, and just how high you can afford to stay, again mix and match those ammunitions for the situation. If you're bringing the same ammos each time it'll make it harder for you as a pilot to adapt to the ammo, when its easier to adapt the ammo for the tactics.
Spend the third match mixing both around and using the vertical mobility to confuse and disorientate the enemy.
This.method of practice does mean you will loose a lot, but it'll be much more useful to you to learn the guns than trying to "win"
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A Mine Squid can work. Thats not the issue. Its just pretty hard to make work of as youre much more likely to run in your own mines. A junker with its mainly sidewards guns is much less likely to hit his own mines.
In terms of pure firepower a mine junker beats a mine squid due to the trifecta potential. In terms of maneuverability the squid is obv the winner.
Alright, cool. I do like that, other than certain weapon combos (met a level 1 galleon with four minotaurs), a huge variety of loadouts can be made viable with the right crewing, flying and team comp. The lack of absolutely dead-set winning meta makes this game super replayable to me. I'll keep working at it.
The key to the munker is knowing the exact range of lesmok mines and normal ammo mines. It has a high demand of pilot knowledge. All crew (including the pilot) need to be familiar with how to shoot with lesmok and normal. Your gunner needs to know that plus burst and lochnagar range and use.
Here is a demonstration of pain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdzbXZC0XGo ...me trying to kill my ally (his perspective)
I'll watch the demonstration when I'm not posting from work, m80 ;). So, yes, It would pay for me to get comfortable with effective mine ranges as the pilot, and get within the goldilocks zone, so to speak, as quickly as possible. Things like that do not occur to you when you decide to steal a loadout that beat you and play it without enough research. We had an idea about how it worked, but our strategies and skills were miles out. I just hope the rest of my crew are prepared for the incoming grind to get that versatility.
Sounds like most competitive teams I've flown with and against. 8)
Yeah, we're clearly comp material already ;D.
As for the rest of your advice (save quoting it all), I think we'll give it a shot. Hopefully my crew will understand that we are learning. I want to git gud, and I feel we're pretty decent for our level so far, but we're a long way off being "good" by community standards. Thanks for the advice. I'll keep an eye on this thread for more mine tips and cheatsheets.
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If you want to learn to shoot mines, I can help with that. One very important thing for your gunner to know is when, and when not, to use lochnagar.
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I regularly fly a mine carronade mine squid with mines front and rear. It's important that your gunner brings correct ammo: lesmok heatsink/incendiary lochnagar so they can shoot at 4 ranges (using regular too). Engineers on mines should bring lesmok. Mines detonate at 20 meters away from ships so try to aim at their sides not directly at them. 3 mine mobulas can work well and my favorite was 3 mine pyra.
The mine pyra had the advantage over munker of being very easy to crew and much faster speed. Attempt to always engage at an angle to get all 3 in arc. Rear gun is flare gun of course. I often switched the left gun to a carronade with less experienced miners or AI. I'm not sure I'd recommend mine pyra since the pyra nerf.
For junker I enjoyed mine on the front and paired with gat-banshee left carro-gat right for close range maps like Labyrinth, but the best mine position is on the bottom for the gunner. My favorite mine junker is the meta 3 engi setup with a wrench buff chem lesmok top, spanner mallet chem lesmok front, and spanner mallet buff lesmok bottom. The left side is 3 mine and right side gat mortar just in case you gotta kill em. Buffed junker and buffed mines OP. Important note that the front engi is in charged of keeping the armor repaired from below.
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It should be noted that its viable to swap incendiary for charged. Charged mines create a lot of damage.
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If youre gonna swap an ammo then swap loch, it's much more useful to keep the intermediate range. Start with all 4 ranges until you're comfortable.
A common mine strategy on junker is to use a longer range side and mine for closer range. For example, the gunner can be on a hades on left side and mine right. A left side merc can also work with lesmok charged heatsink. For my gunner merc mobula the gunner brings charged heatsink loch. Charged for merc, heatsink top left flak, charged/heat/loch for top right mine.
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Meh, full munker is so much more fun. And please, I know how to use loch, I ain't swapping that.
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You're better off with an intermediate ammo when used offensively, loch is purely defensive. You need to stop them before they get that close. Loch is great but slow.
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heres some free practice for you.
if you get too many gunners and they refuse to change class.
Turn into a munker and give everyone on the ship mine ammo sets (if they refuse just roll with it-and tell them during the match that its his own fault for not taking the mine set that helps him shoot the mines).
If they wanna gun. They better gun well. If they don't you will all die.
Many will complain that the mine launcher sucks. But just know that the mine launcher is pretty much one of the most powerful guns in the game and its only failing is the gunner's own skill.
Its pretty much the chimps all using typewriters scenario. Get enough monkeys (game pun intended) to fire mines in the general direction of an enemy. Something will happen.
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And that's why I like charged, the drop isn't as harsh as incendiary and it also creates a fair amount of damage. I'm still a full advocate of loch.
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It should be noted that its viable to swap incendiary for charged. Charged mines create a lot of damage.
accuracy with mines trumps power.
mines are powerful enough. but guess which side wins in a mine war? the one that has precise control of deployment range.
inci mines arent just for short range either (comboing these are so fun), if you fire straight they drop straight down hitting ship below you.
carronade to pop. inci to hit them as they go down. tis a thing of beauty.
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I KNOW that ceres. I said it was a viable option. And I enjoy a full munker more than some hybrid. In a mining mindset, I care less about winning, and more about how many things can I blow up. I've yet to see a sight more beautiful in GOI, than 200 mines out all at once. It's breathtaking.
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"Mines" and "Squid" are a harmonious couple made in heaven for daring crews and yet conjured from the enemies hell. I use the term "Muid" to represent such a magnificent pairing. Having said that a Muid is much harder to fly compared to a Munker but it also has additional advantages whilst negating many of the Munkers disadvantages although that's all very hush hush... ;) (Shock and horror to those who thought Munkers were frustrating enough :P *evil laugh*). Albeit Muids are far more unforgiving of poor piloting and mistakes. So on one side we have difficult to master/fly effectively yet on the other we have possibly one of the most annoying/frustrating to fight ships ever flown... But you didn't hear anything from me. Happy flying! >.>
*Muid: A squid that has a front mine launcher and side mine launcher, it doesn't necessarily have a rear one. Just so you know what madness I speak of.*
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One of the most important skills to have on a mining ship is knowing when to shoot and when not to shoot. New gunners tend to dump their clip as fast as possible when they spot an enemy. It is not that bad when your gunner unloads their gun while out of range, or before the armor breaks. When they mine plop mines in front of your ship as you attempt to get within range they are negatively contributing to the well being of your ship and team.
A good test of whether a player is mature enough to handle a mine launcher is to observe how they fire a mortar. If they can wait until the target is hull stripped before shooting, they can probably learn how to use mines. If they insist on shooting as often as possible, they lack the maturity of a miner.
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I don't know if that is maturity, so much as intelligence.
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Also, general tips/tricks for a mine-centric ship build. Which ship to fly? What loadouts for crew/pilot? What other guns are needed to synergise with mine launchers?
And how do I make sure I don't skim mines on the side of the ship where I am blind as pilot? (Specific to squid)
Pilot tools depends on the ship. The standard loadout kerosene, phoenix claw, and hydro. Hydro lasts 3 seconds so only use it for an instant (on off) and hold up.
Gunners should start off with 4 ammos for 4 ranges: lesmok regular heatsink/incendiary and lochnagar. By using the yellow pipe on the left side of the gun you can estimate where the mine deploys after 3 seconds. Lead targets a lot and place mines around them.
Engineers bring lesmok for offensive mines.
Guns that are synergistic with mines generally have good arcs to easily get all guns in arc. I like pairing with a heavy clip carronade because of similar range and good disable power. Banshee can be quite effective due to excellent arcs and complements the mine's piercing damage. I've seen and paired many guns with mines on the front of a pyra like hades and artemis. Lesmok flamethrower works great if you count it.
Munker is the classic mine ship due to survivability and maneuverability.
Mine pyra was great before the pyra nerf, and it still works.
Mine mobula is fun and my standard gunner mobula includes a close range defensive mine. Mine as the top gun works well with many possible pairings.
Mine squids. Don't hit your mines. I don't recommend 2 mines on squid. One on front and back is plenty.
Your crew should call out any mines that threaten you. Gunner is dedicated spotter.
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A somewhat overinvolved discussion of mine ammo and mechanics: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6478.0.html
Both impact bumpers and drouge chute do -25% impact damage at the cost of 60% thrust, stacking these gives -50% impact and -120% thrust (no engines at all, can't be cancelled out). Since mines do impact (everything) and peircing(armor) damage using 1 or both of these spares your balloon, guns and engines a fair bit of damage.
Mines can be triggered by shooting the mine part or popped by shooting the balloon part, causing them to explode either where they are or when they land (on the ground or if you are lucky/clever an enemy ship).
The blast radius on mines is very large - 60m, for reference a junker is about 40m long.
Dont use lochnagar mines for minefields, they exist only to be placed directly ontop of an enemy. Because of AoE damage mechanics and the -50% AoE of lochnagar they start losing damage at 15m and mines trigger at 20m so the triggering component takes 165% standard mine damage but unless they collide with it at a point where balloon and armor meet every other component will likely take less than 100% and likely 0 (also losing that fire chance).
Taking a rangefinder into the sandbox might help with learning mine ranges. The numbers for range can be found here: http://gunsoficarusonline.wikia.com/wiki/Phobos_Mine_Launcher
It is considered obligatory by some to replace gg with "Hail Phobos" when using mines.
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For learning how to lay mines precisely where you want them to go, I found this guide by Crafteresky (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3065.0.html) really helpful.
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It's important to note who you're fighting. Mine ships are best against charging ships and poor against ranged opponents. Your best bet is fighting a gat mortar pyra. Don't put up mines too early or they'll try to stay out of your short max range of 280.
For squid you don't want both front guns as mine launchers for a few reasons. Gunners are great on mines because they can use 4 ranges but engineers can only use 2. This forces you to engage at lesmok or regular range, not optimal for squid. One of the best defenses for squid is staying close to minimize enemy arcs. A good squid at close range can move to avoid arcs faster than the opponent can provide them. Staying at further ranges makes it much easier for them to get arcs and much harder for you to avoid. Having 2 mines increases your own chance of hitting mines which is deadly. Mines aren't guaranteed hits where other weapons are.
For squid I recommend a side carronade, banshee, or flamethrower. More mines isn't more power. The best mine loadouts I've encountered have mixed weapons.
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For squid you don't want both front guns as mine launchers for a few reasons. Gunners are great on mines because they can use 4 ranges but engineers can only use 2. This forces you to engage at lesmok or regular range, not optimal for squid. One of the best defenses for squid is staying close to minimize enemy arcs. A good squid at close range can move to avoid arcs faster than the opponent can provide them. Staying at further ranges makes it much easier for them to get arcs and much harder for you to avoid. Having 2 mines increases your own chance of hitting mines which is deadly. Mines aren't guaranteed hits where other weapons are.
^ This is the general "food of thought" for most players however I believe this to be wrong from my own flying experiences, below I have listed some pointers which debunk this:
1. You have the fastest ship in the game, with also some great vertical movement.
2. Squids/Muids negate the range weakness of a Munker.
3. The effectiveness of mines rely on how well you can change/maintain certain distances.
4. With a gunner operating the front mine launcher you only need one mine to hit and the engagement is already in your favour providing you aren't flying poorly/badly positioned.
5. Having two mine launchers allows you to get two mines out at different ranges/places. I.e. one in front/above and one behind/below, etc. But also allows for defensive mines if needed. (Sometimes you may find yourself with 2 opponents bearing down on you)
6. When you use a bifecta on a squid you will begin to fly at a slight angle to the enemy ship that is being mined, ergo you are no longer in the flight path of deployed mines.
7. Normal ranged mines are surprisingly easy to get armed at short range when you know a couple of things...
8. Even if you don't hit the enemy they have to be careful where they move, because if they do hit a mine a few things will occur a. they will be knocked off arc to some degree, b. have to repair some damage (Changes with additional mine hits) c. allow you to reposition yourself accordingly, d. in this time you will have another 2-4 mines out. (This is a snowball effect, and its all downhill from here)
Having said all this, I must reiterate that the "Muid" is much harder to fly than a munker initially. This is because it has an additional learning curve for both the pilot and the miners when compared to a munker/ or any other static/defensive mining ship. But is far more rewarding when mastered. HAIL PHOBOS!!!
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How crucial is lesmok on a Muid's engineer? Is it viable to just rush the range loss and make use of loch or incendiary. Or maybe just have the engineers swap to get 2 choices on the side gun.
On another note i had fun once when when an opponent decided that 1 or 2 non focused mine launchers on my ship were cause for a mine duel, i ended up with a 3 mine lumberjack spire and had a distinct advantage after the inevitable mine stalemate.
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How crucial is lesmok on a Muid's engineer? Is it viable to just rush the range loss and make use of loch or incendiary. Or maybe just have the engineers swap to get 2 choices on the side gun.
Lesmok isn't necessarily crucial for a Muid, the range at which a Muid operates is determined by what the pilot is comfortable with. (This is usually decided by what you are fighting and the terrain surrounding the area) Most mines will be deployed at around a normal range. The only time a lesmok mine will be used is on the initial charge, if the pilot misjudges the distance, or the enemy has put themselves in an awkward spot with terrain. But having a back up ammo on the other engineer is always a good idea, providing they can swap quickly when needed. Hope that helps.
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The best thing I have ever done with a mine: I was playing on Paritan with a squid. The enemy's armor was about to go down. They were near a mine, but they were not going to hit it. I charge full speed ahead into the mine to set it off. I barely make it out alive. The enemy was not so lucky.
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The best thing I have ever done with a mine: I was playing on Paritan with a squid. The enemy's armor was about to go down. They were near a mine, but they were not going to hit it. I charge full speed ahead into the mine to set it off. I barely make it out alive. The enemy was not so lucky.
That's awesome.
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The best thing I have ever done with a mine: I was playing on Paritan with a squid. The enemy's armor was about to go down. They were near a mine, but they were not going to hit it. I charge full speed ahead into the mine to set it off. I barely make it out alive. The enemy was not so lucky.
HAVE YOUR 100th SALUTE YOU BEAUTIFUL INSANE BASTARD
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The best thing I have ever done with a mine: I was playing on Paritan with a squid. The enemy's armor was about to go down. They were near a mine, but they were not going to hit it. I charge full speed ahead into the mine to set it off. I barely make it out alive. The enemy was not so lucky.
That's awesome.
Your 40th salute you... Typically roleplay person...
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I literally just wrote a guide for minesquids. I wouldn't suggest learning mines on a squid though, it is super quirky. Munker is better just because it is a stable platform and you won't hit nearly as many mines.
Link: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6527.0.html
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I literally just wrote a guide for minesquids. I wouldn't suggest learning mines on a squid though, it is super quirky. Munker is better just because it is a stable platform and you won't hit nearly as many mines.
Link: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6527.0.html
I actually saw this just after it was posted. I wondered if this thread had been any inspiration, ha. Thanks for the post, dude. Take a salute o7.