Author Topic: Incendiary Versatility  (Read 7347 times)

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2015, 12:55:54 am »
A problem with rate of fire increase - incendiary is currently slightly worse than greased for fire starting on the flamethrower so reducing its rate of fire loss could be a serious flamethrower buff.

Possiby change range reduction down to -40% as well making it a more extreme version of greased on the fire starting weapons rather than similar but better/worse. Might be too much of an arming time advantage though.

Offline ZnC

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2015, 01:38:55 am »
I have always thought Incendiary is totally designed for the Heavy Carronade because it is the only gun that can take the drawbacks.

Clip Size: -25% (2 > 2)
Rate of Fire: -30% (1.2s > 1.7s)
Projectile Speed: -30% (400m > 280m)
Ignition Chance: +20% (20% * 2 * 40 buckshots = 16 fire stacks)

An extra 0.5s between the shots and 120m range reduction for 16 fire stacks. Interestingly with the recent damage nerf, Incendiary seems like the better choice than Charged for Armor stripping.
However, it looks like many players would like Incendiary to be viable on other guns too. I don't really have an opinion on this, but I think it would be cool if the next new gun could take advantage of Incendiary.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2015, 01:54:42 am »
Correct me if necessary. Inc flame with -10% rof compared to greased:

Greased increases relative fire chance from 22% to 35.2% (.22 * 1.6)
Inc increases to 55.8% ((.22 + .4) * .9)

Greased increases clip by 20% so .422 (.352 * 1.2)
Inc reduces clip by 25% so .419 (.558 * .75)

Greased reduces empty time to 72% (1.2 * .6)
Inc reduces empty time to 82.5% (.75 * 1.1)

Inc starts fire faster, slightly less fire per clip, and longer to shoot a clip. Greased starts more fires per second due to shorter empty time and higher fire per clip. Inc reduces range by an extra 20 meters.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 02:21:34 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2015, 03:22:16 am »
I was basing that statement on a previous post somewhere that put incendiary at about 95% of greased for fire starting rate rather than any calculations.

I believe that the ignition chance for both flamerthrower and incendiary is applied on primary and secondary damage.
Also the rate of fire shouldnt be included for calculating fires per clip.

Therfore:

Greased increases relative fire chance from 44% to 70.4% (.44 * 1.6)
Inc increases to 75.6% ((.44 + .4) * .9)

Greased increases clip by 20% so .528 (.44 * 1.2)
Inc reduces clip by 25% and increases fires per hit so .63 ((0.44 + 0.4) * .75)

Greased reduces empty time to 75% (1.2 / 1.6)
Inc reduces empty time to 83.3% (.75 / 0.9)

If i got that right its better than greased but not as big an effect as i suspected

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2015, 04:28:17 am »
Judging from patch notes and wiki the fire chance is a total of 22%. I guess the only variables that matter are fires per clip and empty time. So -10% rof inc starts 1.76X the fires per clip of greased at 90% of greased speed, that's +58% fires per second.

When I calculate current flame fires per sec I get a higher result for inc.
Greased .352 = (.22 * 1.2) / (1.2 / 1.6)
Inc .434 = (.62 * .75) / (.75 / .7)
Solving for the equation of greased fires/sec = inc fires/sec I get the result of -43.2% inc rof.

A higher default fire chance means inc does lower relative fires/sec. For example with a 60% fire chance (inc has 100%), greased starts .72 per clip and inc .75 per clip. So to balance inc compared to greased the flame rof and ignition chance would have to be changed proportionally. Inc could use a bit extra fires/sec than greased due to range.
Solving for the equation with inc rof -10%, greased = inc at default ignition of 51.4%
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 04:55:09 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2015, 04:53:07 am »
From the wiki flamethrower might have no secondary at all so maybe:

16.67 shots/sec

Standard - 0.22*16.67 = 3.67 fires per sec
Greased - 0.22*1.6*16.67 = 5.87 fires per sec
Incendiary - (0.22 + 0.2)*0.75*16.67 = 5.25 fires per sec
-10% Rof Incendiary - (0.22 + 0.2)*0.9*16.67 = 6.3 fires per sec

250 per clip

Standard - 0.22*250 = 55 fires per clip
Greased - 0.22*1.2*250 = 66 fires per clip
Incendiary - 0.42*0.75*250 = 78.75 fires per clip

(not actually max fires per clip - i think the current mechanic allows for 1 shot to hit 2 adjacent components, just not 2 in series)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2015, 05:02:16 am »
In game also shows no secondary. So -10% inc does +7.3% fires/sec compared to greased. That sounds reasonable.
-15% is a similar option of +1.4% fires/sec
Salute Daft Loon
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 05:14:09 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2015, 05:13:59 am »
*gets carried away with calculator

Flamer direct damage 1.2 fire
Armor/fire damage modifier 0.8
= 0.96
If my memory of chemmed armor taking 0 damage from flames is correct this means it is strictly rounded down

Flamer direct damage with charged rounds to armor:
1.2*0.8*1.3 = 1.248
=1 rounded down          by the same logic it would also double direct damage to balloon from 1 to 2

charged clip size 250 * 0.8 = 200
= 200 armor damage

mobula quadfecta
=800 armor damage

galleon armor
= 800

oh god what have i done

Offline ZnC

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2015, 07:07:43 am »
To save everyone from the math, Greased has higher ignition rate. The flamer is unique because it does not have a secondary damage type; the extra ignition chance from incendiary is only applied once. For your own comparison, it's Greased 587% fire chance per second, Incendiary 490% fire chance per second.

I look at Incendiary Rounds as an extension of what the Heavy Carronade can do, like a special function. Just as it is important to look at the Heavy Carronade as a part of a ship - e.g. Blenderfish or Brawling Spire. Simply put, I don't think Incendiary needs to be versatile at all.

@Pies: -30% > -10% RoF will make Incendiary Flamer have significantly higher ignition rate than Greased.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2015, 09:15:27 am »
Btw, damage is not rounded.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2015, 10:47:55 am »
I would have sworn that armor,guns and engines took no direct damage from the flamethrower and chemical spray only affected ignition chance not direct fire damage, which would indicate that the damage had to be rounded down somewhere. Am i mistaken about one of those things?

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2015, 11:38:23 am »
I would have sworn that armor,guns and engines took no direct damage from the flamethrower and chemical spray only affected ignition chance not direct fire damage, which would indicate that the damage had to be rounded down somewhere. Am i mistaken about one of those things?

Yeah, damage is not rounded, at least not to the closest integer up or down.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Incendiary Versatility
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2015, 01:25:15 pm »
Quote from: ZanC
@Pies: -30% > -10% RoF will make Incendiary Flamer have significantly higher ignition rate than Greased.
From my math it starts 7.3% more fires/sec. -15% rof starts +1.4%
-15% is reasonable considering it's -20m range