Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Daft Loon on June 02, 2015, 10:21:47 pm
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To make incendiary useful on more guns:
Treat every gun as a fire starting weapon with ignition chance 0% (until you load incendiary) and stack size X.
Where X is roughly inverse to the number of hits the gun gets Ex.
-Gattling gun/Heavy carronade - 1 - same as current effect
-Mortar/Light flak - 2
-Heavy flak/Minotaur - 3
-Mercury - 4
-Harpoon - 10 - Because firey spears of death
Based on the way its only current use for the sake of fire starting (and not as a mostly inferior version of greased) is on the mine launcher where it gets its ignition chance applied to a respectable 5 size fire stack.
It would still need a slight buff or for fire supression to change in addition to this.
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Treat every gun as a fire starting weapon with ignition chance 0% (until you load incendiary) and stack size X.
Where X is roughly inverse to the number of hits the gun gets Ex.
Based on the way its only current use for the sake of fire starting (and not as a mostly inferior version of greased) is on the mine launcher where it gets its ignition chance applied to a respectable 5 size fire stack.
It would still need a slight buff or for fire supression to change in addition to this.
So to make the rounds more versatile, you wish for users to use Incendiary rounds to start ignition purposes and increase incendiary probability for every hit?
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The idea is to make the fire starting effect relevant on more guns by giving guns that get fewer ignition chances bigger stacks when they do cause fire. The fact that it is barely viable on the guns that get plenty of chances (gattling, carronades etc) means some kind of general stat buff is probably needed too.
Versatility might have been the wrong word for doing what they allready do in more places.
I think incendiary should be something like reverse heatsink - viable on most guns but not the single best ammo for any, decisive in some situations and useful for adding (compared to heatsinks reducing) pressure on engineers.
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While I do agree incendiary should be viable on more guns in some way, this is not the way it should be tempered with. It's too complex and fiddly to be a good option for a "buff", there have been a lot better suggestions to this in my opinion.
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What if we just tone down the downsides.
And let it be an ammo that from default adds fire ignition chance?
Clip Size: -25%
Ignition Chance: +20%
Rate of Fire: -30%
Projectile Speed: -30%
to
Ignition Chance: +20%
Clip Size: -25%
Projectile Speed: -10%
I dont know what problem that causes other than an ammo better than default resulting in an ammo type good for a gunner.
?
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Keep the speed -30% and I agree it doesn't need rof reduction. That's a good balance.
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What if we just tone down the downsides.
And let it be an ammo that from default adds fire ignition chance?
Clip Size: -25%
Ignition Chance: +20%
Rate of Fire: -30%
Projectile Speed: -30%
to
Ignition Chance: +20%
Clip Size: -25%
Projectile Speed: -10%
I dont know what problem that causes other than an ammo better than default resulting in an ammo type good for a gunner.
?
I like the idea, but perhaps this is too much of a change for now. Change rate of fire to -15% or perhaps -10%, put it into DevApp and see how it goes.
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Good idea Disaster, I told Keyvias. Keep the -30% speed so it has use in arm time guns.
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I can agree to decreased projectile speed, but upping the rate of fire would be nice.
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I agree with a rate of fire increase as far as general buffs go, it'll be a useful choice on gattling, light carronade and maybe others with that. However as far as breadth of use goes it seems like that would buff mostly the guns its already almost effective on.
The opposite could be interesting - an even more severe nerf to rate of fire and clip size and a flat increase to stack size and ignition chance, it would buff it in general and nerf it on the rapid fire guns its currently almost good on.
@Exterminator - Whats so complicated about it. Bigger shots cause bigger fire stacks (it makes sense for 1 merc shot to carry more incendiaries than 1 gattling shot). As far as implementation its just an extension of how they implement fire weapons allready. Ill admit that its a lot of numbers to balance but inverse of hit rate (average rate of fire over entire clip cycle X Blast radius) would give a good starting point from which to nerf the effect on guns that become too powerful with it.
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Well if you want weird mechanics, ammount of damage per shot could corelate to ignition chance.
But then explosive weapons will be left out.
Raw ignition chance is still better, its just all the downsides to the incendiary that makes you not use it. I mean, why would you.
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Changing rof to -10% would make incendiary better on lumber and h flak, good on carronades, and useful on gat.
I don't think it's necessary to make incendiary useful on other guns, just effective on the guns it can be useful on. Right now it's only really mine launcher. I'd like to use more incendiary lumber and I'll try it on squid/fish light carronade. Many players wish incendiary gat worked.
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I'd settle for rate of fire increase
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Current incendiary is not even bad on carronades, I would even go to say its pretty good.
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It's pretty good but the rof hurts light carro. If rof was increased then it might be comparable to greased. The change would make it good on carros but I don't predict it being OP. Seems fair on the gat too.
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A problem with rate of fire increase - incendiary is currently slightly worse than greased for fire starting on the flamethrower so reducing its rate of fire loss could be a serious flamethrower buff.
Possiby change range reduction down to -40% as well making it a more extreme version of greased on the fire starting weapons rather than similar but better/worse. Might be too much of an arming time advantage though.
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I have always thought Incendiary is totally designed for the Heavy Carronade because it is the only gun that can take the drawbacks.
Clip Size: -25% (2 > 2)
Rate of Fire: -30% (1.2s > 1.7s)
Projectile Speed: -30% (400m > 280m)
Ignition Chance: +20% (20% * 2 * 40 buckshots = 16 fire stacks)
An extra 0.5s between the shots and 120m range reduction for 16 fire stacks. Interestingly with the recent damage nerf, Incendiary seems like the better choice than Charged for Armor stripping.
However, it looks like many players would like Incendiary to be viable on other guns too. I don't really have an opinion on this, but I think it would be cool if the next new gun could take advantage of Incendiary.
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Correct me if necessary. Inc flame with -10% rof compared to greased:
Greased increases relative fire chance from 22% to 35.2% (.22 * 1.6)
Inc increases to 55.8% ((.22 + .4) * .9)
Greased increases clip by 20% so .422 (.352 * 1.2)
Inc reduces clip by 25% so .419 (.558 * .75)
Greased reduces empty time to 72% (1.2 * .6)
Inc reduces empty time to 82.5% (.75 * 1.1)
Inc starts fire faster, slightly less fire per clip, and longer to shoot a clip. Greased starts more fires per second due to shorter empty time and higher fire per clip. Inc reduces range by an extra 20 meters.
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I was basing that statement on a previous post somewhere that put incendiary at about 95% of greased for fire starting rate rather than any calculations.
I believe that the ignition chance for both flamerthrower and incendiary is applied on primary and secondary damage.
Also the rate of fire shouldnt be included for calculating fires per clip.
Therfore:
Greased increases relative fire chance from 44% to 70.4% (.44 * 1.6)
Inc increases to 75.6% ((.44 + .4) * .9)
Greased increases clip by 20% so .528 (.44 * 1.2)
Inc reduces clip by 25% and increases fires per hit so .63 ((0.44 + 0.4) * .75)
Greased reduces empty time to 75% (1.2 / 1.6)
Inc reduces empty time to 83.3% (.75 / 0.9)
If i got that right its better than greased but not as big an effect as i suspected
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Judging from patch notes and wiki the fire chance is a total of 22%. I guess the only variables that matter are fires per clip and empty time. So -10% rof inc starts 1.76X the fires per clip of greased at 90% of greased speed, that's +58% fires per second.
When I calculate current flame fires per sec I get a higher result for inc.
Greased .352 = (.22 * 1.2) / (1.2 / 1.6)
Inc .434 = (.62 * .75) / (.75 / .7)
Solving for the equation of greased fires/sec = inc fires/sec I get the result of -43.2% inc rof.
A higher default fire chance means inc does lower relative fires/sec. For example with a 60% fire chance (inc has 100%), greased starts .72 per clip and inc .75 per clip. So to balance inc compared to greased the flame rof and ignition chance would have to be changed proportionally. Inc could use a bit extra fires/sec than greased due to range.
Solving for the equation with inc rof -10%, greased = inc at default ignition of 51.4%
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From the wiki flamethrower might have no secondary at all so maybe:
16.67 shots/sec
Standard - 0.22*16.67 = 3.67 fires per sec
Greased - 0.22*1.6*16.67 = 5.87 fires per sec
Incendiary - (0.22 + 0.2)*0.75*16.67 = 5.25 fires per sec
-10% Rof Incendiary - (0.22 + 0.2)*0.9*16.67 = 6.3 fires per sec
250 per clip
Standard - 0.22*250 = 55 fires per clip
Greased - 0.22*1.2*250 = 66 fires per clip
Incendiary - 0.42*0.75*250 = 78.75 fires per clip
(not actually max fires per clip - i think the current mechanic allows for 1 shot to hit 2 adjacent components, just not 2 in series)
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In game also shows no secondary. So -10% inc does +7.3% fires/sec compared to greased. That sounds reasonable.
-15% is a similar option of +1.4% fires/sec
Salute Daft Loon
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*gets carried away with calculator
Flamer direct damage 1.2 fire
Armor/fire damage modifier 0.8
= 0.96
If my memory of chemmed armor taking 0 damage from flames is correct this means it is strictly rounded down
Flamer direct damage with charged rounds to armor:
1.2*0.8*1.3 = 1.248
=1 rounded down by the same logic it would also double direct damage to balloon from 1 to 2
charged clip size 250 * 0.8 = 200
= 200 armor damage
mobula quadfecta
=800 armor damage
galleon armor
= 800
oh god what have i done
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To save everyone from the math, Greased has higher ignition rate. The flamer is unique because it does not have a secondary damage type; the extra ignition chance from incendiary is only applied once. For your own comparison, it's Greased 587% fire chance per second, Incendiary 490% fire chance per second.
I look at Incendiary Rounds as an extension of what the Heavy Carronade can do, like a special function. Just as it is important to look at the Heavy Carronade as a part of a ship - e.g. Blenderfish or Brawling Spire. Simply put, I don't think Incendiary needs to be versatile at all.
@Pies: -30% > -10% RoF will make Incendiary Flamer have significantly higher ignition rate than Greased.
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Btw, damage is not rounded.
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I would have sworn that armor,guns and engines took no direct damage from the flamethrower and chemical spray only affected ignition chance not direct fire damage, which would indicate that the damage had to be rounded down somewhere. Am i mistaken about one of those things?
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I would have sworn that armor,guns and engines took no direct damage from the flamethrower and chemical spray only affected ignition chance not direct fire damage, which would indicate that the damage had to be rounded down somewhere. Am i mistaken about one of those things?
Yeah, damage is not rounded, at least not to the closest integer up or down.
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@Pies: -30% > -10% RoF will make Incendiary Flamer have significantly higher ignition rate than Greased.
From my math it starts 7.3% more fires/sec. -15% rof starts +1.4%
-15% is reasonable considering it's -20m range