Author Topic: Minotaur is unbalanced!  (Read 6381 times)

Offline MidnightWonko

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2015, 04:08:08 pm »
Minotaur outranges both Artemis and Manticore.  I would call those two weapons "checks" to the Minotaur.  Not "counters."

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2015, 04:15:50 pm »
Gatling out ranges carronades but it cab still effectively fight against one...

An advantage does not write off something having the potential to counter something else.

A gold fish is able to be killed in two shots using a merc and heavy flak, both which can be used on a galleon, but a blender fish is still about to counter a galleon.

It is all situational, and you have to use the right tools for the right situation.
Telling people "Oh that wont work because it is out ranged" just assumes every match is a snipe fest and only people with the longest range will win, witch is far from the case...

Ships, move, flanks happen.
People think.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2015, 07:14:16 pm »
Somebody said somewhere in this thread that it is not very effective against Galleons because of the mass.... Somebody is wrong. Two shots will turn a Galleon more than 90 degrees. If it does't, you are doing it wrong. Pyramidians are actually one of the least affected ships since they are small and heavy.

Offline MidnightWonko

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2015, 11:54:36 pm »
Gatling out ranges carronades but it cab still effectively fight against one...

An advantage does not write off something having the potential to counter something else.

A gold fish is able to be killed in two shots using a merc and heavy flak, both which can be used on a galleon, but a blender fish is still about to counter a galleon.

It is all situational, and you have to use the right tools for the right situation.
Telling people "Oh that wont work because it is out ranged" just assumes every match is a snipe fest and only people with the longest range will win, witch is far from the case...

Ships, move, flanks happen.
People think.

Range might not be everything, but the 1800-meter range of the Minotaur is very noticeably greater than the 1334-meter range of the Artemis or the 1200-meter range of the Manticore.  If the Minotaur's range were reduced to 800, both those weapons as well as the 2250 Mercury would outrange it, giving more than just a single option to disable Minotaur while being targeted.

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2015, 11:57:07 pm »
Two words. Lesmok Artemis

Offline Dementio

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2015, 04:30:04 am »
Secret tactics on how to play against a Minotaur:
  • Don't long range it unless you have the advantage at the start of the engagement and your gunners can actually hit.
  • Go close range, because then it can be easily disabled by Gatlings, Carronades and Hwachas.
    • If you get hit while in close range then always remember that there might be a good chance of you being able to dodge, because dodging up/down in close range is much easier than it is in long range.
    • If you get hit while in close range and there is really no way to dodge then always remember that you were probably going to die anyway, the Minotaur just sealed the deal.

If I were to compare that to any other gun, I don't see much difference. In fact, the very fact that you can stabilize a little bit with Kerosene and pretty much completely negate the fact with Moonshine makes it a rather weak gun, like the Flamethrower when it is facing pure chem spray.

The Minotaur is a gun that allows people to create opportunities that are in their favor, but these opportunities can only be created if you give them the opportunity to create them in the first place. It is like giving a Blenderfish or Hwachafish the opportunity to disable you, by not being sneaky enough or something or giving sniper teams to get you down from 100% to 0hp, if you stick to their altitude, immobile and let them shoot at you.

The Minotaur is "easy" to shoot? The Mercury is too! But the Minotaur has better arcs than the Mercury? If I stick to long range and let the enemy get close to me, neither Mercury nor Minotaur should be able to save me, but teams make mistakes, which the Minotaur punishes better than the Mercury. If I can't stick with the Mercury for long range, why not go close range with the Hwacha and disable literally everything? That should give me as much time as I need to win and if I still can't win by then then I probably lost the engagement way before the Hwacha got to shoot.



Out of personal experience, which also consists of competitive experience, when flying against the Minotaur, while flying a Mobula I can say that it is not unbalanced or OP, it is just super annoying.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 04:45:15 am by Dementio »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2015, 06:13:29 am »
Somebody said somewhere in this thread that it is not very effective against Galleons because of the mass.... Somebody is wrong. Two shots will turn a Galleon more than 90 degrees. If it does't, you are doing it wrong. Pyramidians are actually one of the least affected ships since they are small and heavy.

Ahh okay I was wrong on that :) I know you know your stuff, guess I've just been lucky to have gunners shooting my galleon incorrectly :)

Gatling out ranges carronades but it cab still effectively fight against one...

An advantage does not write off something having the potential to counter something else.

A gold fish is able to be killed in two shots using a merc and heavy flak, both which can be used on a galleon, but a blender fish is still about to counter a galleon.

It is all situational, and you have to use the right tools for the right situation.
Telling people "Oh that wont work because it is out ranged" just assumes every match is a snipe fest and only people with the longest range will win, witch is far from the case...

Ships, move, flanks happen.
People think.

Range might not be everything, but the 1800-meter range of the Minotaur is very noticeably greater than the 1334-meter range of the Artemis or the 1200-meter range of the Manticore.  If the Minotaur's range were reduced to 800, both those weapons as well as the 2250 Mercury would outrange it, giving more than just a single option to disable Minotaur while being targeted.


I seriously advise you stop staying still in snipe fests and let this gun keep out of your range all the time, the pure fact you're only looking at ranges of guns shows you're not taking into account ship movement...
If a minataur is shooting you you -can- charge it to close the gap in distance.
It'll be on the side of a galleon, that'll not keep the 600meters difference in weapons ranges for long!
It'll be a spire which can reverse at max speed, but that only buys it a little time, or a bullfish, which in that case you don't even need to charge it, just casually change position as it pushes you about a bit maybe disables a weapon here and there.

But by saying disable weapons are not an effective counter purely and solely on range (which as mentioned above, lesmok Artemis) is just ridiculous.
It shows ignorance to situations, maps, ally tactics, enemy tactics and rests only on the assumption everyone is going to sit stationary and watch this gun shoot them in the face while crying that it is OP.........

The gun is not balanced, it needs adjustments, but it can be countered in a few different ways and good pilots should take into account the situations they will find themselves in when deciding which counters to use.

Abd just to reiterate:

Secret tactics on how to play against a Minotaur:
  • Don't long range it unless you have the advantage at the start of the engagement and your gunners can actually hit.
  • Go close range, because then it can be easily disabled by Gatlings, Carronades and Hwachas.
    • If you get hit while in close range then always remember that there might be a good chance of you being able to dodge, because dodging up/down in close range is much easier than it is in long range.
    • If you get hit while in close range and there is really no way to dodge then always remember that you were probably going to die anyway, the Minotaur just sealed the deal.

If I were to compare that to any other gun, I don't see much difference. In fact, the very fact that you can stabilize a little bit with Kerosene and pretty much completely negate the fact with Moonshine makes it a rather weak gun, like the Flamethrower when it is facing pure chem spray.

The Minotaur is a gun that allows people to create opportunities that are in their favor, but these opportunities can only be created if you give them the opportunity to create them in the first place. It is like giving a Blenderfish or Hwachafish the opportunity to disable you, by not being sneaky enough or something or giving sniper teams to get you down from 100% to 0hp, if you stick to their altitude, immobile and let them shoot at you.

The Minotaur is "easy" to shoot? The Mercury is too! But the Minotaur has better arcs than the Mercury? If I stick to long range and let the enemy get close to me, neither Mercury nor Minotaur should be able to save me, but teams make mistakes, which the Minotaur punishes better than the Mercury. If I can't stick with the Mercury for long range, why not go close range with the Hwacha and disable literally everything? That should give me as much time as I need to win and if I still can't win by then then I probably lost the engagement way before the Hwacha got to shoot.



Out of personal experience, which also consists of competitive experience, when flying against the Minotaur, while flying a Mobula I can say that it is not unbalanced or OP, it is just super annoying.