Author Topic: Minotaur is unbalanced!  (Read 6384 times)

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2015, 03:11:45 am »
I agree the arcs are the most unbalanced and seemingly arbitrary, i doubt they put much thought into it before releasing it with 45 degrees in every direction. Would the gun having only good upwards arcs give it a good place as a blender counter though? The range could definitely be toned down too, there is no reason for it to be doing what it does at max range. The offensive team is only prolonging combat by pushing them that far back and an artemis can probably still disable better at that range.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 03:16:48 am by Dutch Vanya »

Offline Maestro Eraclea

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2015, 06:13:13 am »
I'd say I agree with most of the ideas seen in this topic.
I think minotaur would be more balanced having:
- less but more powerful shots
- either its range reduced or its firing angle reduced (I'd really like to see this gun as mid range)
- more recharge time (can be balanced with even more powerful shots)

As someone pointed out before atm it can ONLY be countered with moonshine tapping (on mid/short range, on long range you're pretty much just fu) and designing a pilot tool to counter a specific weapon with no other use (actually it would be a "crippler" tool) as someone suggested is just not right...

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2015, 08:33:32 am »
I'd say I agree with most of the ideas seen in this topic.
I think minotaur would be more balanced having:
- less but more powerful shots
- either its range reduced or its firing angle reduced (I'd really like to see this gun as mid range)
- more recharge time (can be balanced with even more powerful shots)

As someone pointed out before atm it can ONLY be countered with moonshine tapping (on mid/short range, on long range you're pretty much just fu) and designing a pilot tool to counter a specific weapon with no other use (actually it would be a "crippler" tool) as someone suggested is just not right...


Moonshine is not the only counter...
It is the only pilot tool to counter the gun, good counters are disable weapons, keep the gun disabled it'll not shoot you.
Mercury, Artemis, Hwacha...

Offline Maestro Eraclea

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2015, 08:49:30 am »
Moonshine is not the only counter...
It is the only pilot tool to counter the gun, good counters are disable weapons, keep the gun disabled it'll not shoot you.
Mercury, Artemis, Hwacha...
Yes and no, your ship is continuously turned around (high ROF / reload time) and you will probably have just one gun pointing at the enemy ship (mercury is useless because you get out of firing window too easily, hwacha is probably the reason you got turned in the first place, meaning you cannot fire with that). One gun can help damaging weapons, but won't keep them disabled, not to mention that the enemy ship may have more guns than the minotaur alone pointed on you.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2015, 09:34:54 am »
Moonshine is not the only counter...
It is the only pilot tool to counter the gun, good counters are disable weapons, keep the gun disabled it'll not shoot you.
Mercury, Artemis, Hwacha...
Yes and no, your ship is continuously turned around (high ROF / reload time) and you will probably have just one gun pointing at the enemy ship (mercury is useless because you get out of firing window too easily, hwacha is probably the reason you got turned in the first place, meaning you cannot fire with that). One gun can help damaging weapons, but won't keep them disabled, not to mention that the enemy ship may have more guns than the minotaur alone pointed on you.

Merc works good when used in unison with moonshine.
Your argument that "Hwacha is probably the reason you got turned off arc in the first place" makes little sense...
Galleon Hwacha can disable well and the weight of the galleon means it is harder to turn off arc...
Spire Hwacha is not easy to turn off arc due to the ships profile.

Also the damage output of the gun means it is not a good killing weapon, giving time for pilots to recover during reload and to disables and do damage.

Yes the enemy may have more guns, galleon will have two or three guns pointed in your direction, two burst Artemis shots can disable two of those three guns, if you're on the side of the galleon with two guns and have an Artemis with a good gunner, you're laughing.

The Spire was buffed but is still susceptible to easy damage from a Hades, its a giant target which can be kept at a respectable range, kill it first or perhaps a mobula with Hades double Artemis and you can keep it disabled enough, get your allies to concentrate fire on the spire and you can still kill it quickly.


Now I'm not saying the gun is balanced, it is not, but it is not as overpowered as many claim it is, otherwise it would have been used much more during the SCS.... I didn't see one in the rounds I took part in.

The guns arcs make it harder to evade and avoid, if it catches you off guard it can put you in a bad position (for example a squid phoenix claw turn is hilarious if shot by a minotaur) but it can be countered...

Artemis is the saving grace, good range, good arcs, good disable power, just remember if you're intending to counter the minotaur on the enemy team with an Artemis, let your gunner know it is their primary target, if you need to explain where the gun is positioned on the enemy ship.



Offline Maestro Eraclea

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2015, 11:09:17 am »
Galleons and spires have little-to-no trouble with the minotaur as you said, on the other hand goldfishes, pyramidions, junkers and squids can be completely perma-disabled because of the amount of push/turn they receive, especially at long range (can't say anything about mobulas, didn't have a chance to see that).

Also, if I'm not wrong the minotaur gun outranges the artemis and even if they work on the same range, the target of the minotaur gunner is a ship, while the target of the artemis gunner is a single gun. Still thanks a lot for the tactical advice on the gun disabling effectiveness of the artemis, much appreciated.

So, again, maybe it can be countered in multiple ways, but any counter may be extremely hard to set-up (as non-spire or non-galleon), that's why, as you said, it's not balanced yet, I just hope the devs will receive our feedback and adjust things a little bit.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2015, 11:18:02 am »
Squids are not very heavy, they're subject to being pushed about, but they can push into a close range engagement very fast, especially on reload times.

Pyramidions are heavy and slow, the new engine Nerf means yes they struggle to regain position once the position is lost, so Minotaur counters pyramidion.

Goldfish, a long ship which is weak to the minotaur sideways on, if you let a minotaur get to your side, you're in trouble, but if you charge head on you can get your Hwacha or Carronade into arc, though it is situational, I'd not advise charging a spires guns head on ;)

Mobula is a giant target for minotaur, but have yet to pilot one against a gunner who knows the minotaur... (every minotaur gunner I've been against shot the centre of the mobula so far) but in theory the minotaur should have no problems turning a mobula... Mobula pilots, moonshine.

Sniping a single heavy gun is not as difficult as it may seem, just remind the gunners to shoot the big guns. :)

And yes i am certain Muse have had a lot of feedback about this gun :o

Offline Ayetach

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2015, 12:21:42 pm »
For my two cents on the subject. Initially I thought it was overpowered in some regards but I realize the slow bullet travel time and a lack of tracer makes it relatively challanging for even veteran players when engaging in longer distance shots. I actually feel it works considerably better at closer ranges of course but that aside from a few tweaks to perhaps the firing rate or what not I feel the mino is rather reasonable with its weaknesses to its strengths.

If you beg to differ definitely make your voice known at feedback@musegames.com - they read the emails and are always receptive to input on improving the game with various suggestions and ideas.

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2015, 01:07:13 pm »
Agreed. After some practice with the gun, it is quite hard to use at longer ranges. If people are still upset about the range, maybe we could have something like reverse projectile expansion*? It'd make the gun ever harder to use at longer ranges which might balance out things (although, I'm not convinced it's unbalanced in the first place)

*See: http://gunsoficarusonline.wikia.com/wiki/Projectile_Expansion

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2015, 01:10:40 pm »
Agreed. After some practice with the gun, it is quite hard to use at longer ranges. If people are still upset about the range, maybe we could have something like reverse projectile expansion*? It'd make the gun ever harder to use at longer ranges which might balance out things (although, I'm not convinced it's unbalanced in the first place)

*See: http://gunsoficarusonline.wikia.com/wiki/Projectile_Expansion


Yes but then the gun becomes too much of a gun to be used at close range only,and we have Carronade MKII....  ???

I'd rather see it mid-long or long and loose effectiveness at closer ranger (so within arming time it pushes less etc) which would mean making the pojectile visible to make the ranged shots a little easier to judge..

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2015, 02:29:30 pm »
The minotaur is balanced dangit!

It is as annoying as how Lumberjacks or carronades keep taking your baloon,
Or hwachas disabling half or all of your ship every barrage.
Or a heavy flak not letting you rebuild.

And the minotaur in its own right makes up for what its worth in its own way.

The reload is hugely long, while requiering Heavy clip to make their shots accurate but also only giving them 3 shots where they originaly have 4, 5 with greased but then you must get close for maximum effeciency.


There are ways to counter it if done right, while something like the moonshine can render the effects of the minotaur useless if used right.

It is new, and the heavy flak would also be widely unorthodox if that would be the new gun.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2015, 02:33:26 pm »
One problem with the moonshine is the destruction on the engines. Basically means the Minotaur is doing it's job of hampering you no matter what. Also the trouble of overshooting due to the massive increase in speed.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2015, 03:07:21 pm »
How blatant do you guys plan to use moonshine versus minotaurs?

Offline Lanliss

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2015, 03:22:54 pm »
I have no idea. Only played against mino once, and had no moonshine at the time. I have never used moonshine, and do not know anything about the required time to ignore the kickback. I do know that the mino shot is invisible and silent until it hits, so you have no warning. The only way to counter every mino shot with moonshine would be to run it 24/7.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Minotaur is unbalanced!
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2015, 03:34:28 pm »
Nope. You can simply tap it. Or hold it for 1 second you think the mino shot will come in. And it helped me greatly keeping my disabling guns in arc to disable their mino/guns.

Simply tap it like you would any tool that activates in selection. Go into practice and start turning your squid in circles, tap moonshine and youl see the strength it delivers of holding your ships turn.
Now go into a heavy gun ship with minotaur, experiment with ammos in it.

Heavy clip has 3, and shoots slowly, i think every second and a half.
While greased has 5, and shoots quicker.

Tap moonshine versus heavy clips when you know a shot is coming in. The hardest thing of this is nailing a guess of the FIRST minotaur shot..
If you can defend against one minotaur heavyclip, you should be able to defend maybe against 2. But expect ruining your engines a bit, but not to unrepairable states.