Author Topic: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)  (Read 24597 times)

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2014, 04:35:38 pm »
If that is how the Pyra will be then why not just give it the classic turning back? Its just very weak. This would completely break the ship and turn it into the worst ship in the game.

Spire, great, keep it. It has needed this buff.

Squid, great, keep it, but...I don't think it needs more hp. You just turned it into probably the best ramming ship in the game. This is too much. Reduce the HP and due to the speed up, reduce it back to classic levels so it can't go around ramming everything in sight.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2014, 05:03:17 pm »
But thats a question.


I accidently exagerated and said "-250" which is actualy "-150"

But this is aproximatley 20% of the pyras full health gone down.

When i think about this again...
This will make sure that pyramideons do fall when they fall. And in another note when i think about it more, it does have an easy management so this does actualy balance it out versus other ships managements. It is still an easy ship, but you need to be more carefull this time around.

Squids health change is still super weird... why would it have that much health?

Offline Queso

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2014, 05:08:08 pm »
Never did I think the day would come when you ask for less for the squid Gilder. If this means squid is viable again though :D

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2014, 07:37:53 pm »
Never did I think the day would come when you ask for less for the squid Gilder. If this means squid is viable again though :D

Oh I've asked for the health reduction for awhile. But along with it I wanted this turn rate buff. I'm reasonable regarding the vessel. If its going to be slow and clunky like it is now, then it needs a lot of HP and different gun mounts. But if its going to be nimble and fun like it used to be, then it needs less hp and the ability to evade quickly.

I liked when the ship literally fell apart when it touched others. It forced you to fly it with more finesse and become a better pilot. During the Saturday test, the others were more afraid of my squid rams than they were the actual boat getting a kill. I bobbed and weaved yet only got advantages when I rammed. So, cut the hp, maybe give it a little nudge on accel...perfect. I only say a slight nudge on accel so the ship can avoid accidental ramming with the reduced hp.

As it was, you needed kero standard to not only run but also stop the ship. Now, kero is acting more like a buff, not a necessity. I'd love it as is but I'd love it more if it had a slight nudge. I'd like to test the squid with a 7.0m/s so give it another half a m/s. Suspect that may be all it would need.

Oh and, is there going to be more testing days soon? Found myself logging in the past few nights just to fly around sandbox for fun, but moving targets would be nice :D
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:40:14 pm by Gilder Unfettered »

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2014, 10:16:12 pm »
dude totally called that the spire got a hull buff.  It survived pyra rams it never would have before.  I say keep that in there for sure.

Offline Mezhu

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 01:03:54 am »
Why the pyra nerfs?

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 04:23:07 am »
Also, for the spire. I didnt think it actualy got a top speed Buff.
I'm almost  certain muse actually doesn't use hard-caps for ship velocities. At least I've never "felt" a sudden acceleration stop and I'm sure one can achieve higher top velocities with kerosene and moonshine. I'd be surprised if the max velocity values posted by muse occasionally are anything else but calculated theoretical maximum values based on an underlying equation of motion which looks similar to this: 0 = M*a + K*v with the acceleration vector a, the velocity vector v, M a matrix containing information about the ships mass and the moment of inertia(the resistance against rotation) and K a matrix filled with drag coefficients. M, a and K are the parameters muse altered in patches in the past. Regarding M I've read somewhere muse calculates the ships moment of inertia by approximating its body with an ellipsoid. Hence I think it to be likely the only parameter muse uses to alter M in patches is the ships mass. This has got an interesting implication: Whenever m is altered the ships moment of inertia is recalculated as well. This is very noticeable for the squid right now. muse reduced the weight and not only did this increase the ships acceleration, but also the ships ability to turn as its moment of inertia has been reduced by the mass change as well. Also the squid top speed should be faster now unless the longitudinal and vertical drag has been increased to counter this effect. Can you share the squids new angular acceleration acceleration and top speeds with us, Keyvias?

My impressions on the ship changes (unfortunately I did miss the event so these are only based on sandbox sessions):
Squid: I really like the ships improved agility and I dislike the increased hull. The squids key to survival should be movement and positioning, not tankieness.

Spire: I'd have to play the spire against actual opponents to see if these changes elevate the spire to be an option for competitive matches (which I'd like to see as a goal for spire changes). Personally I do believe the main problem of the spire is that it sucks at playing peek-a-boo with its enemy. It can't drift foward/backward at corners to open fire at the opponent and retreat when it gets focused due to the forward facing guns. It also can't pop up and hide behind structure on the ground as it exposes its giant balloon+hull way before its guns can shoot at anything. As a glass cannon the spire needs to get into cover somehow before bad stuff happens. I don't see how acceleration addresses these characteristics and think an increased turn acceleration or buff of the spires vertical movement would be better approaches to address these problems.

Pyra: Again I'd have to test this against actual players to get a good impression on its current state. However lower movement speed paired up with less offensive power (weaker rams due to reduced velocity) and defensive power (hull reduction) might be a tad too much. Personally I've seen the pyra at a pretty good place before the patch. It's likely a bit overused (statistically), but I'd mostly attribute that to the pyras easy crew-role-assignments rather than to some sort of superiority. Regarding the hull reduction: Pyras can probably be killed quite reliably with a single flak volley now. I don't think that's a good thing.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 05:34:24 am »
Pyras have been weak for awhile. Very easy to kill them. Used to be able to shift everyone to hull and tank on a Pyra quite well but then it changed and it just folds up easily. I seem to remember there was a reduction in something, then increase in weight, loss of turning ability, top speed increase to turn it into a lawn dart...we've had players up and retire or teams quit due to the changes.

Chatted with Zuka on many occasions and hes said it before that it was a factor which led to him ending his near nightly antics in GOIO. He then joined the Wolfpack who all up and quit when it was nerfed so, lot of like minded folk. Course real life happened anyways but before the changes he was a late night machine on GOIO like me. Brick, he's been similar. 1.2 was the first big blow, then the troll players tipped it over for him. He shifted to Junkers and found things to keep interest, but then nerfed. Little reason for him to log in for a game that he can't love anymore and put up with terrible people. Tried to get him into Munkers but its not his thing. Shame.

Best revision of the Pyra imo was before a lot of that. Before everyone insisted it had to be a super ramming ship lawn dart because it was pointy. Back then it was a flexible multirole fighter. It wasn't particularly great at ramming but it could do it. Was on par with the Goldfish in that respect. Run the risk of it becoming the go-to vessel by changing it back, but with the other vessels fixed, it wouldn't be without counters. Lot of ships could easily give a buffed Pyra, the run for it's money. 1.1 is a prime example of that. It was popular but had many counters. I tore them up all the time no matter what build it used.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 05:36:37 am by Gilder Unfettered »

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 08:42:04 am »

Spire: I'd have to play the spire against actual opponents to see if these changes elevate the spire to be an option for competitive matches (which I'd like to see as a goal for spire changes).

I can safely say yes! Yes many times. And some more.

You will still need to learn proper crew managment, build and priority. But thats captain stuff. Just take one build, one way and youl learn more on your own.
If this spire buff will make final, i will tell you that it is major. Option for competetive? It always was, well for me. But now, i can certainly see more people (alot more) flying the spire. It will be able to whip around corners now, whip around back and forth. When i first felt the spire in sandbox i was giddy.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 12:03:34 pm »
I like the Spire changes. I felt that I was able to effectively close-quarters dogfight a Squid and Goldfish on Labyrinth at the same time using moonshine and claw. Starting and stopping seems almost instant.

As for people leaving because their favorite one-trick-pony ship build gets nerfed.... I feel they are missing out on most of the game anyways, and were not very good in the first place. If you play the Hardcounter Lobbies of Icarus game, it shows a lack of adaptability on the fly.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2014, 10:05:53 am »
Well crap, totally missed this until now. Been awhile since I've wanted to actually test something!

I'll have to give it all a whirl and email yea.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2014, 05:14:40 pm »
As for people leaving because their favorite one-trick-pony ship build gets nerfed.... I feel they are missing out on most of the game anyways, and were not very good in the first place. If you play the Hardcounter Lobbies of Icarus game, it shows a lack of adaptability on the fly.

Go back and check the Wolfpack's matches. Those guys were excellent Pyra pilots at the time. They entered during a time when Mercs/Arts were ruling the sky and were mopping the floor with ranged teams by using CQC. Then Muse killed the Pyra, they left. They're weren't bad players, just very specialized. It hasn't been just them either. I've known many other good pilots who just quit when their boats got broken. I should have been one of them had Muse not added mines and I not gotten involved in the VN project.

You can't label people as bad players when they leave because a ship they love has been broken. No one in this game is flawless with all vessels. Everyone has a favorite or a boat which makes the game "theirs." Heck I can play all the boats but you'll rarely see me flying Spires, Mobulas, or Galleons just because I don't like them as much as the others for various reasons. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't be able to 5-0 some pubbies flying one. But against vet pilots, I wouldn't dare take one without good cause. Some guys in here are very good with those, they love them. So does that mean if they stop playing as much due to a major nerf on their favorite, that they are a bad player? By no means. Take Zill, Skrimskraw, or heck even Sammy. Some old fogie vets like me. Even if they were on a break and came back when their favorite boat was fixed, I'd view them as a greater threat than someone who's been playing consistently. Just because I'd know they're helming something they love and knew how well they handled it in the past.

Its like a bike or roller skating, you never really forget. Get rusty but it doesn't take you long to shake it off.

Offline Nietzsche's Mustache

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2014, 09:24:09 pm »
Funny you should bring up the Wolf Pack, Gilder. I actually learned to play flying with those guys, almost such that months after the wolfpack disappeared and then tried to come back, Janeway is sitting there going "wait, you WEREN'T ever in the brotherhood?"

Funny story, but I did get really sick bored of Pyramidions and I do think the thing needs a certain nerf. But I don't think it's quite the nerf that people/the devs think it needs. Problem with it right now is its too well rounded, which is why you can counter anything by changing the front guns of the pyra. Instead, it should actually be the "vanguard to lead you into battle," in other words, fast in a strait line, heavy and burly, but suck at everything else. Big rewards for the perfect approach, big punishment for cocking it up. But not just an outright nerf like what we're looking at now.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2014, 11:17:16 pm »
The thing about wolfpack was that they specilised on what was very strong at the time. Gattlings had enourmus range compared to now. Pyras rams were super hard.
What nerfed the pyra in these patches after was not the rams nerf, but the gattling/weapon nerf (flak got reduced to bad)

This made pyras having to have to get closer.
I dont think they were bad players, but if they left because of these nerfs, thats a sign of players that wouldnt hold up on a very balanced game. But kudos to those that still stick around.
What wolfpack did is show exactly how strong and bad the situation was with the game and pyra. That is why i think they are famous.

Also, another thing.
I looked at Scs videos but focusing on pyra health. I measured aproximatley how long 550 health was to the previous on the health bars.
Pyras will still hold up, they will just not have that many close calls. Light flak will kill the pyra in 5 shots. I actualy think this is deliberate.
Alot of times pyras on competetive fall down to exactly just before my measurement of the health bars.

This health change is on the very edge for pyras.

Just thinking about this change the way i did, makes me think that pyra pilots wont quit flying pyras. But they will sweat more. Like i said, they really do just have to be more carefull.
Feats that pyras do now are gonna be seen as more cool because it may be more risky in the eyes of spectator.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2014, 12:16:20 am »
I dunno I kinda hate Pyras atm. Ships just have felt weak and the gatling is a strong reason for it. Half the time you have to ram to get armor down or go with disable build to take anything out. Don't even bother taking on Junkers, they'll just sit there laughing at your gatling while their armor never goes down. I wonder if it is time for that gat distance to come back. Then potentially get to the 2nd clip by the time you are close enough for the kill. Could be why it feels so weak on the squid and Pyra, you don't have that extra lead on the clips before you are in kill range.

Curious to see if Muse will touch up the Junkers in another test build. I'd like to see a shift in something there.