Author Topic: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?  (Read 7660 times)

Offline Hoja Lateralus

  • Member
  • Salutes: 135
    • [ψ꒜]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 23 
    • View Profile
What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« on: November 12, 2014, 05:17:35 am »
Hi guys
So basically one of the problem people may have with current matchmaking is that potentially lvl10 and lvl30 with the same win/lose ratio may have the same or similar glicko2 ratings and end up against each other in a match. Which (in most cases) is bad and ends up with stomping.
My suggestion is that player level may be multiplyer for glicko2 ratings. Not a big one, say* from 0.7 for lvl1 and 1 for lvl45. This way matchmaker may be more clever in its' choices and more EXPERIENCED** players would be put in games together.

*random, made-up numbers only for example purpose

** experience =/= skill per se, but I believe it matters a lot

Offline Imagine

  • Member
  • Salutes: 59
    • [MM]
    • 19 
    • 33
    • 22 
    • View Profile
    • Twitch Stream
Re: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 12:06:42 pm »
No.

Offline nhbearit

  • Member
  • Salutes: 27
    • [Duck]
    • 17 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 01:49:50 pm »
Imagine, I know you're better than giving just a flat out "no." Show some respect and back up your statement, or lose what respect I have for you.

Offline Imagine

  • Member
  • Salutes: 59
    • [MM]
    • 19 
    • 33
    • 22 
    • View Profile
    • Twitch Stream
Re: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 08:01:06 am »
Imagine, I know you're better than giving just a flat out "no." Show some respect and back up your statement, or lose what respect I have for you.

It shouldn't have to be said. Levels have never EVER been an indicator of skill in game, not when they were achievement based, and especially not now when all it takes is to basically sit in a game. You can actually be the most horrible player and still get to 45 given enough time.

Yes, experience counts for a whole lot, I don't dispute that at all, but to have your skill be counted by a number that is completely devoid of skill is a horrible idea.

Offline Spud Nick

  • Member
  • Salutes: 130
    • [✦✦45]
    • 40 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 08:20:58 am »
Matches played should be in the glicko2 ratting along with K/D ratio and win/loss. Wait.... Is it in there already? Because if not it totally should be.

Offline Omniraptor

  • Member
  • Salutes: 51
    • [Duck]
    • 27 
    • 45
    • 38 
    • View Profile
Re: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 12:37:51 pm »
I think that a slight multiplier would be a good idea.

Offline nanoduckling

  • Member
  • Salutes: 116
    • [♫]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2014, 08:16:00 am »
It isn't really possible for any of us players to say if this is a good move or not. Muse have kept the secret sauce to the matchmaker under wraps other than that the base rating uses the glicko2. I don't have access to this secret sauce either but if I had to guess they are probably using something like a generalized linear model with a Bernoulli distribution and a logit link function aiming to predict the match outcome with the independent variables the glicko2 ratings of the players on each side possibly with an interaction for player role, match type, etc. Maybe they have some non-linear terms as the game is co-operative.  I expect a generalized linear model as the response variable is not something you can model very well with a standard regression or linear model, the Bernoulli distribution and logit link function because that are what you use when the response variable is binary (match outcomes are either wins or losses).

The stated objective of the matchmaker is to produce balanced games (this is used as a proxy for 'fun' games because measuring 'fun' is hard). This is a hard problem because the model is being asked to predict when it wont know things. Measuring how well a model predicts things is easy (just count how often it gets things right for various sophistication of the word count), but there is no standard procedure for determining if there exists a better model than the one being used which doesn't involve writing down some possible models and computing something like the AIC.

Adding terms to a model is risky, there is a chance of overfitting (when your model does great on past data and suck on future data because it was fitting to noise). If I had to guess this model already has a fair few terms in it, adding more is something that would need to be done very carefully.

Since we don't know what the current model is and don't have access to the data that was used to construct and validate it, we are not really capable of knowing what modifications, if any, could improve it. Maybe adding a term in something like exp(-N) where N is the number of games a player has is a good addition. Maybe a level multiplier would make the system predict better. Maybe non-linear terms in the glicko2 level aren't currently in the model and their addition will improve it.

We cant know and it is probably a good thing we don't know because if I knew the set of model equations I could easily game the system.

Now if folks have a novel idea for a variable to add to the matchmaker that's cool, but unless Muse are completely incompetent and have failed to consult a statistician I'm pretty sure they have considered levels, matches played, kill death ratios, average armour breaks per death and a whole host of other variables they could add to their model. The only thing we have sufficient knowledge to do here is express our like or dislike for the matchmaker from our personal experiences and suggest to Muse that it is something we want more time spent on (or for those who really hate it, ask that it be removed).

Offline shaelyn

  • Member
  • Salutes: 73
    • [◉‿◉]
    • 40 
    • 42
    • 10 
    • View Profile
Re: What if level is a multiplyer for glicko2 rating?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2014, 11:53:38 am »
the point of the MMR is to balance, and while the matchmaker may not give us balanced matches using the MMR currently, I really don't see how adding a semi-random multiplier to it would help.