New players in advanced matches

[Mean Machine]

Hello!

I haven't found topic about this, so I tought I'd make one.
One thing that kinda bothers me are new players (some of them haven't even finished tutorial) getting into advanced matches or however you call non-novice matches. I think that's a bad idea. It's bad for both sides really: "experienced" players probably don't want to spentd every 2nd match explaining  to engineers how to properly use tools and to gunners how and when to shoot etc etc.... and new players probably don't want to get destroy by experienced players either. I think it makes a lot of them ragequit or just get an impression that the game is too hard or matchmaking is unfair, so they quit, before they could actually learn the game and get to like it. I think that's really bad and we probably lost quite some players for that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy to help new players if I can, even tho i'm very new to game as well, but I wouldn't mind helping noobies, if they would ask me to get into sandbox with them and show them how stuff works. But I'm not really excited to explain stuff again and again, while I'm trying to do some more "serious" matches. It's also frustrating that most of these players won't give a single fluff about your orders/advises/suggestions while in match and a lot of them likes to quit mid-match. 

EDIT: Forgot to mention my suggestion.. The most logical one to me would be restricting them to novice matches, until they get at least two roles to lvl 4?
What are your toughts about this?

[Mod Josie]

While this is not a terrible idea in theory, in practice it takes on a whole new realm of inconvenience.
Many new players do skip the tutorials - hopefully that is going to be different soon - and so lack experience. However, if they find their way into an experienced crew that is patient enough to take them under their wing and teach them in a friendly environment, they're much more likely to stay and play more than someone who only plays novice matches and gets bored because they don't understand how to play.
Remember also that sometimes experienced players will encourage their friends to buy the game and join them. Forcing these two players to play apart until sufficient experience has been reached is just absurd. They would be restricted to hanging out in Sandbox. This game's social structure is one of the big factors towards its awesomeness (in my opinion).

Many experienced players with less time on their hands than me will often advise a new player to try a novice game over a regular game anyway. Whether that advice is headed or not is up to the player.

It is topics like these that ought to be discussed though. Matchmaking, upon its arrival, will change a lot about how someone gets into matches and finds crews their own speed. As such, everything is up for grabs in terms of debate about players and their experience.
More opinions - flow forth!

[Mean Machine]

Yeah, I know Jacob, it should be like you said, but unfortunately I'm getting different experience First of all, it's a miracle if you convince crew to take right ammo. But ok, that's not the end of the world, but once we're in match and I want to get my gunner on that gatling and he doesn't responds to me... or having both front guns active on pyramidion is very rare occasion with noobies. I found myself facing an enemy without firing a single shot at them and dying few times already.
I told that engineer that armor is priority over side guns, but it doesn't help. I tried over voice comm and in chat. And of course there are many more other examples of them failing to listen. I know that's most likely because they are new and they probably don't know how important it is to get the right loadout and to things this way and that way...

They are there to try game out, to have fun, they are likely in "yolo" mode and that's it. I don't blame them and I'm not angry at them, but in my opinion it's really not good idea to allow absolutely new players join advanced matches. It's not just about experienced players, it's also bad for them - new players, like I said before. As much as GOI community is nice in general, there are still quite a few angry captains without manners and those would probably not take lightly enginners that would repair guns instead of armor (sorry I'm saying armor, because hull doesn't make sense to me to have two different hulls, perma and the one you can't repair...). I've heard captains yelling at noobies already unfortunely, it is something no game can avoid.

The main issue here is, that a lot of vets are trying to help new players, but like I said, players that barely got in game just don't listen, they don't know better, they don't know it's important to listen and that the right loadout will help a lot. It's not a problem if they don't know how to do stuff, it's a problem because they just won't listen. I can understand they don't like being told what to do imeediately they come into game to try it out. And that's exactly one reason why i think allowing advanced matches to new players is not the best idea.

That said, you might be right that my suggestion is maybe a bit too strict, but i feel like at least something should be done. Maybe pop-up message for every time low level player tries to join advanced match? It could warn him like "Please be advised that you're attempting to enter advanced match, where you will fight experienced players. It is recommended that you join novice matches, until you reach level 4 in at least one role".

EDIT: I know people will say I'm bad captain if I can't make them to listen, but I told them simple and clear. Gunner (and his name) can you please get on right front gun?  No, he prefer to stand next to me and hit me with wrench or repair already repaired armor. 

[Mod Josie]

Your opinion is not unjustified in that respect. There are players out there that simply don't listen and can make life very difficult for captains and crewmates alike. I agree that there are bad apples out there - it's an unavoidable consequence of the game's being available to everyone who pays a few bucks - but do not despair.
If you have tried to reach out a player and they haven't listened, hopefully others will try to reach out and eventually they will get the message. This doesn't happen for everyone, but it's their first steps to GoIhood, and we should humour their curiosity.

You'll probably be interested to check out the new matchmaking system that Muse is working on. It will send less experienced players into brackets which are less likely to coincide with a player who is incredibly experienced. The basic details on the matchmaking system and the crux of the discussion can be found here.

[Mean Machine]

Thank you for replies, Jacob. I can't access that link you provided, but it's good to know Muse is working on better matchmaking
I hope no one read my post the wrong way and think I'm complaining or something. I'd just like balanced matches, because those are most enjoyable 

[pandatopia]

I think actually something that would really help this is a mandatory, more in depth tutorial.

I know nothing can replace experience and actually flying, but my major frustration when dealing with newbie players is having to justify everything I'm saying to them, which makes me come off as a huge jerk.

To give an example, one day I went from asking politely to basically screaming at someone to "hold fire on the mortar until you see red". Now, as a novice, how or why should they listen to me? They see a gun, they want to shoot it, and thats completely understandable. They have no concept of damage types through no fault of their own, and thus they are less inclined to understand why I am telling them to hold fire, only that I am trying to get them to play a way they don't want to play.

Another thing is rebuild vs repair. This is in numbers sure, but doesn't adequately tell a novice engineer what they should be using. How do they know rebuild is spanner and repair is mallet? When I first started out, I had no idea what the two terms meant at all. Another engineer frustration is what the hull armor does, and what do the different indicators mean.

There is also no tutorial on ammo types at all, and thus you see novices (and AI) shoot their hwacha at a 1k distance target with greased rounds or something like that.

I really think a better tutorial or handbook will make this a lot easier.

EDIT:

also on the note of ammo types, could charged rounds please have a disclaimer that says "Total clip damage increases by only a factor of ~5%" so people will learn its for burst dps and single/two shot weapons, rather than on everything forever heh. Because I know as a newbie gunner all I used was charged because zomg +damage!

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Could just give up on the Novice/Vet stuff and take it back to FFA. Then us vets can once again dine on the entrails of newbies while filling our goblets with their tears! Muahahahah!!

Or just give us an ejector seat button. Preferably linked to a gun that can fling them into our enemies when they give us any guff!

"Captain, they're firing noobs at us!"
"Very well, we'll respond in kind! Ready the noob thrower with Noobmuffins and Mr.HugNnoob!"
"Loading up! You may want to block list them now sir, their profanity arming timers are already going off!"
"Excellent, fire the noobs at will!"

[Hunter.]

Just a quick point about the idea that friends "won't be able to play together until there is sufficient experience". What if partying up with higher level players allows entry into advanced matches? Just a thought.

[HamsterIV]

I know nothing can replace experience and actually flying, but my major frustration when dealing with newbie players is having to justify everything I'm saying to them, which makes me come off as a huge jerk.

You are being too hard on your self, it is the captain's job to be bossy and demanding. I am sure I earned a spot on a few people's blocked lists for being too bossy and coming off as a huge jerk in their eyes. I have also earned the praise "you are the best captain we have ever had," a few times too for the exact same behavior.

Blocking the new players from interacting with huge jerks like me will not help player retention. If a new player takes issue with a captain telling them what to do, they are not going to enjoy the game when they do reach higher levels where ship coordination is the norm. If a new player is the type that is happy to respond to instructions, why deny them access to Veteran players who can give good instructions?

[Piemanlives]

Once again there are no such thing as high leveled matches, sure the standard match can be seen as such however this is not what they are, they simply matches. The novice lobbies are there for convenience, giving new players the ability to test out game mechanics so on and so forth. This typically does not come to pass as they tend to jump into regular matches on a normal basis.

And while that isn't the issue, the fact that there is often a gap in skill among veteran players and the new ones, making the game difficult because the vets are trying to do something yet the new players don't exactly know what they need to do. They may have a general grasp of the game mechanics, they may know how to play the game well enough, but I personally consider vet players to be different in the way they play, while the same things still apply, knowing what to repair, when to repair it, knowing what ammo to use on what gun, knowing how to engage the enemy so things go well for you. These things aren't exactly rocket science, yet how one actually goes about them can confuse people who aren't used to tactics such as those we tend employ. while sure firing a mortar when there are red indicators is kind of obvious to us the fact that new players have yet to distinguish the difference between red and white is still there. A new player flying a heavy flak galleon may not understand how the arming time system actually works. The only way they can actually get to know these things is if someone teaches them, and if they are willing to learn, both of which are missing from time to time.

And I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, in fact I'm in favor of a mandatory tutorial detailing these things, but until then we have to make do. Be that bossy captain who has to put down the law on your ship, it may be the only way, it may cost you the game, they may leave, but hey at least you tried right?

[macmacnick]

I'll be hosting some novice matches when I get back to the west coast and my desktop. (On vacation on the east coast right now)

[Tanya Phenole]

I miss playing in novice matches, where no knowledge about strategy/mechanics, but only will to win helped to win with half-AI crews =)

Anyway, when I was showing the game to person who is very new, it was difficult to him to find novice match.

For an average player who tries to enter the game, it is much better to play with expierenced crew to pick up things quickly. Unfortunately, as a player with some expierence, I sometimes don't have mood and patience to explain people how game works. Also, a lot of new players accept help as "GTFO, I know what to do" (been there on my beginning too).

That is just a nature of public matches. We have to live with it 

[RearAdmiralZill]

Given that I never had the option of novice matches when I started, I honestly don't know if they are doing anything more for people then when they weren't here. I tend to just hear of "horror stories" from the novice games, and I'm sure it's a safe bet some people have left Guns having only seen the novice games. I don't think locking matches like this will have the desired effect.

[HamsterIV]

When I first started there were no novice matches either, but there were matches without Zill in them.  That was my safe space to learn and experiment. It is very hard to learn what you are doing wrong when you die 20 secconds into an encounter from a perfectly timed gat morter combo. Even if you are doing something right there is not enough time to get positive or negative feedback.

For new players I think they should crew with a veteran, observe how a ship is run then try and duplicate the vets actions as a captain in a beginner lobby. A while ago it was suggested that under level 3 pilots should be still allowed in the beginner lobbies as pilots, even if they were 3+ in other areas. It would allow for more  new captain experimentation time.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Yeah I've always heard more horror stories of novice matches than I have good stories. They are the places where dual LF Pyras are born and where everyone is a powder monkey.

Course that is how it is in MMOs. Everyone wants to be the DPS class, not the healer or tank. In GOIO you can consider the pilot to be the tank, the engineers to be the healers, and gunner as DPS. Since gunners are the bane of existence, that forces healers to the forefront. But people generally don't like supportive roles so they quit.

Observing and learning, then copying vets sounds great in theory but most of the time newbies come in and try to tell you how to run your ship. Had far too many with sub 50 matches thinking they were kings of the air vs someone who is over 3000.