Gunner Tool: Addons

[Crafeksterty]

So, i keep trying to come up with a reason why gunners are so gosh darn useless.
They arent useless, but their effect isnt as wanted as much as the engineer.

Ived toyed with the concept of the gunner having a new tool Type. And that to me is still the solution.
Here is a previous post on the subject with an idea: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3680.0.html


But today, ive come up with something that gunners can have fun combining and be effectve as the post above, but still stick with the guns the ship has.
And that is.


Weapon Addons
Weapon addons are very small effects that give a small benefitt to an applied gun.
They are designed to take a bit away the drawbacks of ammo types, or enhance the beneffits of an ammo type even further.
Much like the buff hammer gives 20% damage, with charged ammo type working well. Or buff hammer, with greased.

The special use of Addons is also that it can be stacked up to 3 different ones on a single gun.

This tool takes place on the gunner loadout that is applied to guns from outside of the gun. You place it on the gun much like a chem spray.
The cooldown to each use of the same addon is 30 Seconds, while the duration of each addon on a gun is 15 (Not talking about repair cooldown).

So now we know how the addons work in terms of usage. Now we just have to focus on their effects. They are minor but easy to apply.


Charged addon
Apply to a gun, and for 15 seconds, that gun gets 15% more damage. 30 second cooldown until usable again.

Greased addon
Apply to a gun, and for 15 seconds, that gun gets 15% faster rate of fire. 30 second cooldown until usable again.

Fire Addon
Apply to a gun, and for 15 seconds, that gun gets 15% added chance of fire stacks on hit. 30 second cooldown until usable again.

Stable Addon
Apply to a gun, and for 15 seconds, that gun gets 35% less recoil. 30 second cooldown until usable again.

Sling Addon
Apply to a gun, and for 15 seconds, that gun gets 20% added Projectile speed. 30 second cooldown until usable again.

Oil Addon
Apply to a gun, and for 15 seconds, that gun gets 50% added rotation speed. 30 second cooldown until usable again.

--------------------

That seems like alot, but it does not have to be all of them. You can choose which one is most neccesary.

The point of all this is making gunners more flexible in what they do and make it take less skill requiered to be a gunner, and for skilled gunners be rewarded more.
For example, a gunner can add Sling Addon with Lesmok Lumberjack. That way, his shots will hit alot easier.
For a skilled gunner, he can use Greased addon with Lesmok Lumberjack to be able to fire quicker.

And this then will work along with many other gun combinations. Something engineers wont be able to do unless gunners are there to give them the ammo type!!!

Here is some other Combos:
Heavy Flak Lochnagar + Oil Addon. Uses up 2 slots to concentrate easy lochnagar use.
Greased Gattling + Greased Ad + Charged Ad. Uses 3 slots for a concentrated gattling use, not really good repair man then because gunner.
Burst Banshee + Fire ad
Burst Hwacha + Stable ad
Heavy Hwacha + Sling ad
Incindiary Flamer + Fire ad + Greased ad
Burst Artemis + Oil ad
Light flak + Stable ad. A non-gunner combination
Buffed charged Mortar + Charge ad. A combination where the gunner loads charged into engineers mortar, and the engineer simply has charged addon. (65% more damage)
Heatsink Twin Carronade + Charged ad + Stable ad
Greased Hades + Greased ad + Charged ad
Charged mercury + charge ad + sling ad
Charged Heavy flak + Sling ad
Heatsink heavy flak + charge ad + sling ad
Heavy clip Gattling + Greased ad + Sling ad
Damaged gun on repair cooldown + Oil ad/Greased ad
Lesmok Artemis + Sling ad


With this, we probably would see alot more gunners in games. Engineers do not benefitt much at all from this as they only have one gunner slot.
And maybe benefits pilots for quick effect on guns.
But for gunners, it gives them more combinations to play with and be effective with.


In my oppinion, with this. I would GLADLY have 2 gunners on my spire.

What do you guys think?
This idea is mostly to add a different tool TYPE for the gunner. pilots have 2, and engineers have 3. Gunners have a meesly 1 use which the other classes can take also.
When the gunner has 2 different Tool types, that is 1 more than pilots and engineers can handle, suddenly the gunner is usefull for having more gunner slots.


Edit: Has this been mentioned before? Kinda got a flashback

[awkm]

I like the ideas in principle, but because these are all new mechanics which will require new UI and interaction methodologies... it'll be hard to pull off.

If there are ways to create more skills for the gunner to make them more attractive, that would be the best and easiest way to do things.

[awkm]

With the the new gunner ammo, I'm thinking of really really niche but really really useful.

Crazier they are, the better.

[Captain Smollett]

For balance it's always seemed that some sort of additive tool would be best.

A gunner would be way more useful if more than one tool could be used on the same weapon at the same time.

Kind of how buff hammer, chem spray and pipe wrench can do a lot for a ships component or pheonix claw hydrogen and kerosene can all help a ships movement nearly simultaneously.

[awkm]

If the problem can't be solved with ammo then we can consider other alternatives.  However, the issue is that these addons or new mechanics are not only new but they break several design paradigms that we have in place.  All pilot skills (aside from the 2 spotters) must be used at the helm, the engineer skills are used while running around, gunner ammo is used on or while shooting a gun.  We already really don't like the spotter tool exceptions so we'd like to keep them as few as possible.  While addons may be a solution, it's a very messy solution which will require a lot of work.

Again, if the problem can't be solved with additional ammo (again crazy ideas for ammo are okay... like effects while the ammo is loaded like Heatsink) then we can examine additional mechanics.

[Nidh]

Is there a thread for crazy gun ammo ideas? I have one: Impact ammo, 80% clip reduction, 60% damage reduction, adds push effect (impact damage)

[SirNotlag]

Ooh ooh here is a crazy idea for an ammo type!
Swarm ammo: bullet speed -30% fire rate +1000% weapon damage of 15 per shot. It would be like lochnager for fast firing weapons cause big ones wouldn't see much use of slower bullets and just extra fire rate but a flamer or chain gun could fire a huge cloud of damage and break itself in the process.

As for the add ons that the gunners could get its a neat idea, there has been thousands of ideas suggested for new gunner tools from hand held weapons to voodoo trinkets.
Not that there is anything bad about giving Muse ideas

[Crafeksterty]

Again, if the problem can't be solved with additional ammo (again crazy ideas for ammo are okay... like effects while the ammo is loaded like Heatsink) then we can examine additional mechanics.

The problem again coming from me, is that the gunner only has one purposefull tool type. And the function of this tool type is the problem. Not how it works, just that that is the only option the gunner can play with and have.

If i would make these tools more simple (The addons), and in a way more powerfull, they could straight up be passives. With these tools equipped, the gunner simply fires every gun he jumps on with the added addons. I dont know exactly how much that breaks things, not in terms of stats but rather, there are no tools in the game that gives a passive effect. So that would be a completely new mechanic one must implement.

OR

These addons if selected on a gun produce the effect without reload instantanious.
This both balances out a bit on my idea. Which then is so that you cannot use 2 addons at a time, but you still can use one ammo type and an addon.
Not only that, it does not really need new graphics or models. Maybe some form of graphic in the future. But atm, an addon can work as a passive if selected on a gun.
So a gunner jumps on a lochnagar loaded heavy flak, all he has to do is choose oil addon once there. That way we get rid of the cooldown mechanic, we get rid off addons being held on the player hand. Only thing it does is modify the weapon on selection.

But really, i dont know. Crazier ammo type would be nice. An overhaul to the gunners current ammo selection may be the easiest solution if you still want to keep it at ammos.

[SirNotlag]

Here is another link to a discussion about new ideas for gunner tools:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3680.0.html
It has talk about passives and other things on page 2.

I still think tools that take up a slot and give passives can be balanced and would be a nice way to vary up the builds.

to quote myself from the thread i even had some ideas
"reload crank: while the gunner is sitting on the gun it reloads 20% faster

padded gloves: reduce recoil by 10%

Magnification goggles: the zoom function on all weapons is doubled

weapon lubrication: weapons rotation speed increased by 15%

necklace of steel: while sitting on the gun its armour is increased by 30% so it is harder to disable.

rabbits foot: its so lucky that when sitting on a weapon it has a 50% chance of stopping a fire stack from being placed on the gun.

ring of the protector: increases the ability to repair weapons by adding 1 to rebuilding them and 25% to keeping them maintained regardless of tool used.

Witches Heart: while sitting on a buffed gun its fire rate is also increased by 25% and reload rate is increased by 30%" 

There are other ways that gunners can be given more tools that don't alter the mechanics of the game too much, an example i can think of would be a buffing tool that takes up a gunners tool slot and provides offensive buffs by either only being used to buff guns or providing alternate buffs that could stack with the original buff tool. An example for an offensive buff for the hull could be electrically charging it so when you come in contact with the hull of another ship the charge is used to electrocute the other ship for more damage or hitting their components with shatter damage. That could be used to help you ram other ships or get back on your feet by disabling an enemy ship that rammed you.

[Caprontos]

I like the ideas in principle, but because these are all new mechanics which will require new UI and interaction methodologies... it'll be hard to pull off.

If there are ways to create more skills for the gunner to make them more attractive, that would be the best and easiest way to do things.

Can I ask how you guys (devs) would feel about changing the gunner class to be a muti-class in that...

A gunner can pick either three ammo - or - two ammo and two tools?... allowing the gunner to fill the current gunner role or the "gungineer" role . Perhaps this falls under the "new mechanics" though.. but imo this would in general let the gunner class be more useful in more spots.

The idea would be, it makes the gunner more flexible while not removing his primary use to always be shooting things.. or letting him be entirely outclassed by an engineer.

With the the new gunner ammo, I'm thinking of really really niche but really really useful.

Crazier they are, the better.

At any rate... crazy gunner only ammo.... That's not necessarily even a good idea or make any sense.. stats for you to decide mostly.. unless I have a suggestion.. but I will try to think "Crazy" you can figure out if its balanced or how to if they are useful..


An ammo that deflates an enemies balloon, causing it to move down quicker, and up slower. like mimicking the pilot tool

An ammo that has a chance to remove chem spray seconds or buff seconds..

An ammo that "seeks" specific components.. So if you shoot with in a certain range, the ammo will turn to hit it (so like, if you have engine seeking ammo, the ammo will turn and hit engines as long as your close) (Reduced rate of fire though..).

On that note.. magnet ammo that makes it pull toward metal parts of the ship..

An ammo that changes a guns dmg type.. (goodbye  balance!)

Light loch.. that works like loch but will only reduce light guns to 1 hp.. with slightly reduced stats..

Some new debuff ammo.. Things like, if you hit an engine its output is reduced by 25% for 20seconds..

An ammo that marks a hit ship.. works even in clouds.. but the mark follows normal rules and will go away if not visible.. (single shot, +20% reload + a bit more range).

An ammo that creates small tar clouds.. on impact..

Friendly ammo (heal - buff - chem spray allies from afar..)

Friendly ammo 2 - (Use the magic of friendly ammo to heal - buff - chem spray yourself..)

An ammo that makes a ship magnetized.. and pulls it toward any nearby ships..

Delayed fire ammo.. it only tries to add fire stacks x seconds after hitting an enemy ship..

Ammo that only works for mines, but lets you use a hot key that explodes all the mines you shot with the ammo..

buff ammo that adds a buff to the gun that lasts for two clips.. second clip can be any ammo.

Ammo that extends the life of engi buffs and chem spray... maybe it makes a buff last 2 clips, instead of timed.. if the ammo is active when the buff is added.. the point is so... having one buff engi is fine because he doesn't have to buy your gun all the time, and still buff and shoot his.... or just to make chem spray last longer..

Ammo that increases the turn ratios of the gun .. but dmgs the gun the entire time it is outside its default range.. (They said the pyramidion couldn't shoot to the right..)

Random stat ammo.. that randomly adds buffs and debuffs from a pool that includes all available buffs and debuffs.. (... no? I didn't think so)

Ok I am going to bed now.. I am up way to late.. haha..

[Crafeksterty]

All pilot skills (aside from the 2 spotters) must be used at the helm, the engineer skills are used while running around, gunner ammo is used on or while shooting a gun.

Then i wanna try this! For reals!

These addons if selected on a gun produce the effect without reload instantanious.
This both balances out a bit on my idea. Which then is so that you cannot use 2 addons at a time, but you still can use one ammo type and an addon.
Not only that, it does not really need new graphics or models. Maybe some form of graphic in the future. But atm, an addon can work as a passive if selected on a gun.
So a gunner jumps on a lochnagar loaded heavy flak, all he has to do is choose oil addon once there. That way we get rid of the cooldown mechanic, we get rid off addons being held on the player hand. Only thing it does is modify the weapon on selection.

An instant gun effect on selection (Much like a helm tool, just one a gun) would be pretty neat. The ammos function is on reload. There are no instant effects from the gunner.

[awkm]

I really want to keep this to ammo for now.

Selection other than selecting your tools and following existing interaction paradigms and its related UI will take months of work to implement, and then more months to test.  Adding/removing/tweaking ammo is the fastest thing we can do with minimal feature implementation.  If I had to guess, adding these new Gunner mechanics like passives or addons won't make it till Co-Op if we ever decide to pursue them.

However, this doesn't mean these kinds of additive effects cannot exist.  The issue is with UI and interaction.  When you're on a ship, we need to think about how players will select these various addons where they will happen.  Adding new buttons to press or menus is very clunky so I'd like to avoid those as much as possible.  This brings us all the way back to the ammo themselves but also how you select which ammo to bring.  There may be something that can be done here like all the 3 equipped ammos affecting each other in some way.  Maybe deciding which slot they go into is important.  Maybe the mixture the 3 ammos becomes your default in some weird way?  These things may have potential.  However, I also want to stay away from passives and random things.  The experience as a gunner (and the rest of Guns) is active, you are doing all of the time and not run around with a magic aura.  Randomness is just unclear and doesn't allow players to be active when they want to.

Yeah, there are a lot of constraints but some constraints are always good.  I don't think there are too many right now.  Constraints and following design principles and previously established paradigms means the game is easy to understand and the systems don't feel like band-aid fixes.  Instead, they should be deep and rich with many viable options.  There are some good ideas here, let's keep going in that direction.




We have passives before in beta but there were several issues with them.  I'll bring the idea up again with the rest of the team to see what they think.  If possible, I'd still like to generate more ammo ideas.

[AbbyTheRat]

I had a small idea that might actually help balance the gunners out a bit with the engineers.

Move the buff hammer to gunners. (Of course something will need to replace it for the engineers to bring the balance back up a bit)

The idea is similar to the telescope. Pilot rarely take it, it's mostly Engineers/Gunners. Gunners would rather take buff hammer but Pilot and Engineer would. It'll also add a little more trade-off. Do I take the buff ammo instead of an ammo type?

It'll make the engineer a stronger engineer if they take the buff hammer but at a trade off of being limited to just normal ammo. So if possible, a new tool for the engineer to give them that more choice and there be a lot more to decide.

[Crafeksterty]

Damn, well then. There have been other threads circulating ammo and ideas around and in it.

I cant recall atm, but in the end its always the reload that is making me cringe.
But you have to answer this atleast, and people have made suggestions regarding it all the time and it is The Reload Speed!

How well can that be implemented.
How about gun health, can it be durable when an ammo is applied and etc.

But these questions and answers can be shown elsewhere when you guys decide to change the gunner up a bit.

[awkm]

Yeah we can do something with gun health.  Finding a way so it makes that ammo can add health is another story

We had variable reload speeds before in beta.  The way ammo worked at that time make it very broken so we had to ditch it.  I have a feeling it might still be a little broken but I haven't sat down to think of all the edge cases yet.  Either way, it feels very risky to me knowing what it was like before and how easily it broke

And not to say that these are ideas we can't do... it's just that I'd like to evaluate what can easily be done before saying yes to a ton of work that won't be done for months.  It's a matter of finding the path of least resistance and that path is through thinking of new ammo.  To be honest, the addons might be the solution we're looking for but I need to bring it up with the team to decide of how 'passive' we think they are.  In addition to variable reload speeds, there were also passives.. believe it or not lol.