1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower

[Schwerbelastung]

On a somewhat related side note: I think the unique piercing characteristic of the flamer to be quite problematic. Flamer projectiles can travel through ships, hitting any component they pass along the way - effectively multiplying the nominal damage of the weapon. As a result the flamer poses a way higher disable-threat to some ships than to others. Try flaming a junker from above and behind with burst rounds and watch your hit-markers to see where I'm coming from! Its balloon, hull, all 3 engines as well as all 4 main weapons will all be very close to your line of fire.
I dislike this piercing characteristic in general and I think it should be removed entirely. If that's not possible, reducing the flamers projectile size might help to at least contain the multiple-hit problem.

I personally like the piercing mechanic and would like for it to stay. However, as far as I know the flame projectiles are currently 4m wide. Perhaps it would be more balanced if they were 3 meters instead?

[macmacnick]

Heh, a hard counter to the junker's maneuverability, by using the flamer.

[Mezhu]

As if the gat/mortar combination, the lochnagar flak, the mine launcher, the lumberjack, the heavy carronade or any other weapon isn't frustrating to be faced against when a level one.

This 'flamethrower ruins noob games' argument is invalid. Yes, it is easier to run but it's also easier to counter compared to any of the guns and tactics that have been common for the last 10 months.

edit;
and yes wundsalz is right
if everyone keeps complaining about the flamethrower an alternative would be to just make it a piercing 'gatling' with far less damage which also creates a fire every now and then
boring, lame but retains some usability

[Dementio]

I have the feeling that Wundsalz is requesting an alternitiv to the incendary gatling...
And as far as noob-friendliness goes, we will have to rely on the tutorials, showing the new players how to use tools against fire.

Another thing is that having the pilot bring drouge chute is not the same as having the entire crew go firefighting, but since most competitive teams already use constant chem spray and heatsink is always an option, there is not much that changes, actually. As said before, we have to rely on tutorials showing non-competitive people what to do in case of fire.

As a side note, this game should not have a gun that can be countered with tools to make it entirely useless, else everybody has the potentional to be invincible/"immortal". Staying out of range requires pilot "skillz" as well as hiding behind cover to render artemis useless and even destroying enemy guns before they can even do anything is strategy. Tools, of any kind, should only help you gain the upper hand and not negate death indefinitely.

[-Mad Maverick-]

and yet the flamer practically has that counter which why I am so confused by the cries of "OP"

[Dementio]

Because you cannot have just 1 engineer keeping everything save from it. You need at least 2, if not 3 on certain ships, to keep everything fireproof and still shoot at the enemy. The Gatling as well as the Carronade could be dealt with, with 1 engineer respectively and at times even with help of the pilot. The gunner in the meantime has all the time to shoot at whatever is in sight.
The flamer, as stated before, requires much more effort to be dealt with. But then again, who says the effort isn't worth it?
Think of what the enemy has to sacrifice: A gun slot for a gun that you can counter, a gun that you can render useless. Another aspect in which the flamerthrower is unique: The crew actually can fight against this gun. Every ship that has a flamethrower either has to be ready to fully rely on it's other guns or has to catch its opponent off guard to be useful for the team.
This is, of course, purely competitive, if you get caught off guard and thus get set on fire, something went wrong. Otherwise you are prepared to block the gun entirely. High risk for high reward. Either it works or it doesn't.
Concerning normal matches, and I am saying this again just to make sure, we have to rely on the tutorials teaching new players what to do in case of fire.

Does this end the discussion? Please let us be more professional and refrain from moving in circles or does somebody have something to say that hasn't been stated before?

[-Mad Maverick-]

dem i hope it is as clear to you as it is to me that we are  saying the same thing
which is honestly no surprise to me since the Ryder's and wolves have a standing history of agreement

[macmacnick]

...Chem spray duration buff would silence those who dare cry "OP" in the face of the flames.

[Dementio]

dem i hope it is as clear to you as it is to me that we are  saying the same thing
which is honestly no surprise to me since the Ryder's and wolves have a standing history of agreement

Just so you know, I am Daniel.

[Sammy B. T.]

Y'all act like the mere presence of chem spray stops flamers.  What is not being understood is what is lost by chemming. Typically a repair means someone jumps off gun, whacks the hull with a mallet and goes back to the gun, not having the ability to do anything more for 9 seconds. However a hull that is taking flamer as well as damage means that repairs mean cheming and then waiting for chance to mallet. What was spending an instant off the gun, the engineer is forced to babysit for a little over three seconds. This may seem small but it definitely adds up over time.

To achieve the goals of the flamer, weaken the repairs and force engineers to repair over shoot, the flamer doesn't need the current ridiculous stack throwing.

Now to the crys that a tool shouldn't negate a gun. Functionally all guns, with the exception of flechette and shatter guns are functionally negated by tools when they are used alone. All guns need, and should need to be paired with another gun. I'm not afraid of a gat and I sure as hell ain't afraid of a mortar. However, the two of them being used in conjunction is deadly. Flamers are best paired with gats or carros because like every weapon combination, they overwhelm engis on two fronts. This is what made the Rainbow Crash the most effective brawling pyramidion in the competitive scene of late.

A good conceptual way to see this game is that destroying a ship is not overcoming its natural defenses but instead as overwhelming its crew. The flamer has been able to do that for months now. Competitively speaking I've been forced to respect the flamer as a competitive weapon since I first faced the Rainbow Crash back in January.

[Wundsalz]

I disagree with your argument chem spraying had a severe impact on your damage output. Chem spraying is usually done by engineers who are either dedicated to repairs or engineers who quickly jump into a weapon with explosive damage once the enemies hull is down. The player who delivers the hull strips shouldn't be affected too much by the presence of the flamer.

It's true that a flamer/gat combo put more pressure on the engineers than a gat/mortar setup. However the additional disable and strip power comes at the cost of cutting a serious hull damage  source - so I think that's fair.

[-Mad Maverick-]

I agree with wund... not to mention how close you have to get

[Sammy B. T.]

I disagree with your argument chem spraying had a severe impact on your damage output. Chem spraying is usually done by engineers who are either dedicated to repairs or engineers who quickly jump into a weapon with explosive damage once the enemies hull is down. The player who delivers the hull strips shouldn't be affected too much by the presence of the flamer.

Only Pyras, Squids, and Goldies have that full time dedicated engi for hull. Junkers, Mobulas, Galleons, and Spires generally have a part time hull engineer. Functionally no ship has a full time dedicated balloon engi. Furthermore with the fire stack rate and piercing nature of the flamer, functionally everything has to be chemed, not just the old stand by just the armor and balloon.

I agree with wund... not to mention how close you have to get

It is not that difficult most of the time.




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I suggested this in the dev app earlier this morning


4 X Area of Effect
.66 X Ammo
.5 X Rate of Fire
A tiny bit longer range
Same damage and ignition chance

What this does is makes being in the flamer extremely noticeable. If the flamer is in range functionally everything on your ship is being hit for a long time. If my calculations are right you will have 165 shots, shoot 8.33 per second and cover the enemy ship in flames for 19.8 seconds. (current is 250 shots, 16.66 per second, and 15 total seconds)

What this gives?

An overwhelming long in flames duration (the flamer shoots nearly the duration of chem spray)
Ability to deal with stacks due to messed up prevention (stacks don't pile as ridiculously)
Ability to force the whole of a ship to deal with possible fires (huge aoe)

[-Mad Maverick-]

I just feel like other than range the gun is in a great place and shouldn't be messed with

[GeoRmr]

I just feel like other than range the gun is in a great place and shouldn't be messed with

I agree, with lesmok this thing can shoot pretty damn far...