Author Topic: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower  (Read 160919 times)

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2014, 03:36:07 pm »
remember our suggestion that the range be brought in has been heard and is live in the dev app currently... I believe this change will make the choice between lesmock greased etc far more of a weighted decision

Ah, that's right. I was referring to the dev app range. The live version is probably still around 200 meters, but the dev app has it at ~150.

fair enough I can't imagine that isn't short range enough but I haven't played with it with another human yet

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2014, 03:39:27 pm »
also my Hawacha gunner would have chem spray and no heat sink and would be chem spraying in reloads instead of buffing since a repair wouldn't be that needed since flamers don't do much damage if I keep it sprayed... again a change of mentality is all that is needed

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2014, 03:41:00 pm »
also my Hawacha gunner would have chem spray and no heat sink and would be chem spraying in reloads instead of buffing since a repair wouldn't be that needed since flamers don't do much damage if I keep it sprayed... again a change of mentality is all that is needed

Are you talking about gunner gunners? Are you sure that sacrificing all repair/rebuild ability is acceptable just to fight fires? Or were you talking about having a gungineer with just burst rounds or heavy clip?

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2014, 03:46:55 pm »
well I personally hate gunners and always have so I PREFER gungineers but if I wanted to have long range versatility I would have my gunner bring chem because we won't need the repair as much since if I'm facing a flamer there won't be too much direct damage...


but lots not pretend like gunners weren't useless before the patch...  I am all for creative ways of making the gunner useful
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 03:51:26 pm by Cpt Janeway »

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2014, 03:52:21 pm »
well I personally hate gunners and always have so I PREFER gungineers but if I wanted to have long range versatility I would have my gunner bring chem because we won't need the repair as much since if I'm facing a flamer there won't be too much direct damage

Interesting. I would imagine that even if there was a flamer against me, there would be other guns which would be better at destroying weapons without flame stacks. I personally would need a lot of persuasion to have my gunner bring anything else than a spanner or a wrench, but a gungineer could naturally fit a chem spray in his kit a lot easier. To each his own, though.

Welp, here I go again. Talking about how gunners are at a disadvantage in some situations. Well, maybe there will be a day in the future when the dreaded Powder Monkey was no longer shown the door but welcomed with open arms, as he would bring something else to the table than two additional randomly chosen ammunition types that he wouldn't necessarily know how to use.. well, one can dream. ;)

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2014, 03:55:14 pm »
toats agree dude... tbh I have run an all engi ship since beta... this problem has existed from the beginning
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 03:57:01 pm by Cpt Janeway »

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2014, 03:56:01 pm »
in my opinion the easiest fix would be to make the buff hammer a gunner tool

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2014, 04:02:43 pm »
in my opinion the easiest fix would be to make the buff hammer a gunner tool

The problem is that would require the gunner to go to the different components (engines, balloon, hull) if they needed to be buffed. How about just integrating the "buffed rounds" into the gunner as extra damage? For reference:

Normal rounds: 100% damage without buff
All gunner rounds: 120% (+- any ammo modifiers) damage without buff
Buffing engineer rounds: 120% damage with buff
Buffing gunner rounds: 140% damage with buff

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2014, 04:05:09 pm »
dude that sounds awesome... or what if the gunner had different effects on different  weapons e.g less jitter or longer range depending on the weapon...

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2014, 04:05:59 pm »
but to my point he wouldn't because your main engi would just bring a buff as his ammo type

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2014, 04:06:10 pm »
dude that sounds awesome... or what if the gunner had different effects on different  weapons e.g less jitter or longer range depending on the weapon...

That is also a possibility. However, it could be a little confusing and possibly even a bit hard to code (not sure about this one). A simple damage boost is not only easy to implement, but new players would understand it quicker. :)

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2014, 04:06:38 pm »
we should start up a new thread!

Offline XtremeNameX

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2014, 04:56:18 pm »
We can argue about the finer details all day long, but the way I see it there are still two huge problems with the hotfix flamer (& in very preliminary testing, they still seem present in the dev/range-reduced build). & not to pick on you Janeway, but you touched on both points... just the wrong side of them ;)

it is honestly so frustrating for me to read these responses.  the flamer is a perfect example of not being OP in the SLIGHTEST in higher level games but perhaps being frustrating in lower level matches.  it's frustrating to me because here is a gun that could truly shake up the face of the competitive scene and give some much needed diversity to brawlers, but because people don't know how to handle fire in pub matches (or perhaps even with high level people who weren't around in beta and so haven't experience actual true balance with the flamers) it is gaining the reputation as OP nerf-bait...  please awkm give this change some time and let the community learn how to handle it, I promise you it will be seen as balanced soon enough...

I know the competitive scene is very important and a big thing on the forums, but in a game with such a small community this is the exact opposite of the approach we need! GoI will never grow if pub servers are easily dominated by frustrating flamer teams. It will take exactly 1 game against a double double-flamer pyra team for any new players to quit and never come back. Given that the flamer's main role is to be frustrating, I think we need to be VERY careful that it's not such a dominant choice against noob ships. I have no idea how we'd actually achieve this (Sammy, any ideas?) but it seems like the ideal 'nerf' would be something that makes it less commanding in noob games but more useful in competitive games in the hands of expert. Something to make it tougher to use (but still good when used correctly) would probably get close?

I have not felt overwhelmed by the flamer at it's hot fixed state when I have my crew with me.  we load up our heatsink rounds and chem spray our hull and balloons and laugh at the incoming fire.

Whether or not it is counterable shouldn't be the deciding factor in OP/fair... if the presence of a single weapon on board the enemies ship demands a specific engitool+ammo setup, that is not balanced. As Sammy said, even one flamer on the other team pretty much necessitates a chem spray/extinguisher for every crew member. Now if the enemy is rocking a double flamer or similar ship, obviously you should need to counter it with your crew's setup... but for 1 single weapon to have this effect should be the telltale sign that it is still too powerful.

TLDR;
1) The flamer is way too annoying, dominant, and easy to use in noob games-- this will frustrate a lot of first timers right back out of the game
2) A single flamethrower dictates the other team's tools. No one weapon by itself should be such a gamechanger
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 04:57:51 pm by XtremeNameX »

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2014, 05:49:41 pm »
there are plenty of weapons that the presence of which demands direct strategic reaction;  blender fish?  bring drogue or stay far away.   mine launcher?  don't get close or of you do stay very close.  art?  just bring more arts...

  as for the flamer I was showing how there is a DIRECT counter to it.   in this game is there any other weapon in which if you brought a certain item you rendered it useless?  a gat strips armor no Matter how much you mallet.  your balloon pops and you descend and have your armor stripped in spite of drogue Shute.   your weapon is perma disabled no matter what you do from an art. but load heat sink or Chem and your weapon will take almost ZERO damage!  and inspite of the very obvious and hard counter existing the flamer is considered OP? I not only disagree but am
slightly offended that you don't give our community enough credit to accomplish this...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 05:52:49 pm by Cpt Janeway »

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2014, 06:27:08 pm »
Ha, finally a greenhorn voicing his opinion - thanks XtremeNameX! Your impression is quite what I've personally expected. New teams are generally more vulnerable against disabler builds (carronades, hwachas and flamers in particular) as countering them requires some experience how to prioritize repairs. Also knowing who should take care of which component and who should continue putting pressure on your enemy by shooting at him helps a lot. Neither can be expected from teams consisting of new players.
For the flamer I assume that the lack of knowledge how to deal with fire-stacks causes your difficulties to deal with the situation, as the flamers direct damage is very low compared to competing weapons like gats and carronades.

Reducing the ignition chance of flamers while increasing the direct damage might be an alteration which makes the flamer behave more like a conventional weapon. Minor repair-mistakes wouldn't result in massive fire stacks and could hence be handled easier by (new) players. At the fame time the increased direct damage would ensure the flamers stays a viable option against more experienced crews.

On a somewhat related side note: I think the unique piercing characteristic of the flamer to be quite problematic. Flamer projectiles can travel through ships, hitting any component they pass along the way - effectively multiplying the nominal damage of the weapon. As a result the flamer poses a way higher disable-threat to some ships than to others. Try flaming a junker from above and behind with burst rounds and watch your hit-markers to see where I'm coming from! Its balloon, hull, all 3 engines as well as all 4 main weapons will all be very close to your line of fire.
I dislike this piercing characteristic in general and I think it should be removed entirely. If that's not possible, reducing the flamers projectile size might help to at least contain the multiple-hit problem.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 06:35:01 pm by Wundsalz »