Fleeing the scene

[Cinders]

I primarily captain.  One aspect that I feel is missing is a space for pilot skill with the terrain.  Sure, there's positioning with the junk and sometimes, just sometimes, you can use the terrain to buy time or escape.  But some of the maps, like Paritan Rumble, have some really great street level flying set up.  The maps are great, some good detail, plus the clouds come in.

But, 95% imho, if you do turn to flee, calling for your engineers to bolsters the engines as you dive to the streets, looking for an alley to hook into... the enemy just floats high above, shooting very sharply down on you. 

There isn't a meta advantage into giving up altitude in nearly any case.  Maybe it "all makes sense", but there is an opening to put some meta in there, to add complexity to the job position (which is not required for new pilots).

There are various ideas that could work, probably better ones to be found.  Reducing the down angle on some guns.  Creating a pilot skill that releases a flock of balloons upward, providing a temp overhead shield that buys time and blocks view.  Add the ability to adjust default ships, reduce the hull for better handling. 

[Dutch Vanya]

Using existing terrain effectively WILL always give you an edge over pilots that don't. But it is true that a lot of the commonly used guns shoot down very easily.

[Crafeksterty]

Ohhohoh, haha. Yeah im sorry but you need to learn the art of Mobility.
I must ask, which ships you are flying and with what guns versus what guns?


To me, altitude is the most important thing, so baloon buff along with either chute vent and hydrogine is going to save your life.
Now have that in your mind and think about the enemies guns. For the sake of defence.

On a defencive note, you will want to be at a close range very high. For most part to avoid guns. Most guns except the hades, lightflak and lumberjack have high altitude aiming. Other than that, most other guns cannot aim up. Go into high altitude to dodge.
Stay in Low altitude for the offence most of the times. You will want to not be spotted. The ground in most maps have the best of hiding spots. Guns can aim down at you but you will be at them and close by before they see you. if you were in their altitude you will just have a regular ol who hits the most or has the best guns for the situation.

You dont escape going down, you escape going under and behind the enemy yes, but not down to place. You escape getting behind cover or just outrunning them.



Staying above enemies is always better, do not go down for an escape. In my case, i start off down low because that is where most covers are.
Going straight up as slow projectiles move in make you dodge em. Like a hwacha or a heavy flak/hades/lumbers etc.

You dont use altitude as the means of escape, you use it as the means of dominance.

In one instance, starting off very low versus ships that are very high will get you to go underneath them. Once underneath, a quick hydro  or just moving up as you are following them on your map will give you an advantage. Take note that Gattling and mortar dominate at a high ground. If you are up against that kind of combination, staying above them with maybe your own pair of gat mortar is winning the fight.

You also didnt try having a buffed baloon flying the mobula. That is one of my more favourite things about that ship.



TL;DR Mix up enemies gun arcs.

[Nidh]

If you're having trouble escaping, perhaps the newly reworked tar could help you out? I hear it's decent now, but i haven't tried myself.

Altitude-wise, if you happen to fly Goldie, maybe even junker(I never tried on junker), using your balloon as a shield is surprisingly effective vs. gat-mortar Pryas.

Some ships are harder to escape with than others and rely on superior firepower and positioning to win an engagement, if you are flying with any of those ships, chances are your (or your ally's) positioning choice was incorrect and the consequence is most likely the destruction of your ship.

As they say, you must win the engagement before it even happens.

[Richard LeMoon]

I think you guys are missing the point of this. He is not asking for advice on how to fly with current mechanics. He is saying it would be fun if duck and dodge street-level flying, fighting, and fleeing were a valid play style. He already knows it is not valid, or would not have made this thread.

[HamsterIV]

Balloon shielding is already a thing. I have flown with many pilots who use their balloon to absorb gat/mortar fire while their crew got the hull armor back. On of the main advantages of low level flying is that most ships don't have very good downward visibility for the helm. You can sometimes get an inexperienced pilot to bounce off terrain if you position yourself well enough.

[Wundsalz]

most of the commonly used guns do a better job at killing stuff from above than from below. Also it's often possible to 'sit' on ships, damaging their balloon or even killing them if they're close to terrain. Hence it's usually advantageous to literally stay on top of your enemies. Still moving low has got its advantages as well. Most importantly flying low can grant an advantage in the initial positioning. The vast majority of ships heavily constrains the downward field of view - from the steering wheel in particular. If you see them first you can also act first. Also In general there's more structure to work with on the ground which not only can support you with the initial positioning, but can also be used for evasive maneuvers (Here I got myself into a hairy 2vs1 situation due to a communication error with my co-pilot).
Bottom-line: staying above your foes is usually the better choice, but diving below them has got advantageous niche-uses as well. I think the situation is fine as it is.

[Sammy B. T.]

Hamster mentioned balloon shielding, I would like to elaborate on that. Most weapons are ineffective when hitting the balloon, and with the exception of the long ranged lumberjack, weapons that are good at destroying the balloon can't look down. Utilizing balloon blocks is vital to using that low level terrain when facing a high altitude opponent. Granted some ships like the pyra can't balloon block as well due to the fact that their one of their strengths is their partially hull covered balloon, however, generally speaking less damage can be done to lower enemies.

However, in a world with gravity and airship combat, height advantage will probably always be a thing. Instead of suggesting weapons not being able to shoot down as much however, I would suggest adding a gun that shoots an incredibly vertical shot which could be super fun, basically an aerial torpedo that rises or a high shooting mortar.

[Wundsalz]

I'm really not a fan of balloon shielding as it's a very risky maneuver. It's rather easy for your enemies to push you further down while damaging your balloon if you dive underneath/next to them. Also, as said before - the most commonly used guns got a wider gun arc downwards than upwards. Personally I dislike using this maneuver on any ships but the goldie, squid and junker. The former two can usually evade 'sits' due to their high mobility. On the junker it's usually a quite desperate move - if the hull is (about to go) down something needs to be done to prevent explosive damage to finish you off.

Edit:

On of the main advantages of low level flying is that most ships don't have very good downward visibility for the helm.

A very fine example for this is the galleon. Galleon pilots don't see SHIT below them and even the crew will have a hard time to spot you if you approach them from below. A relatively reliable way to kill a Galleon which is floating high in the sky is approaching it low, so they don't see you, then gain just enough altitude to hit the outer edge of the fin underneath it, which counts as hull, with gat/mortar. Their captain can't see you, their guns don't have an arc to fire at you - perfect.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Balloon shielding works better against noob players cause they tend to blow ammo on the balloons. Against vets it can be risky. But given circumstances it is still the best option. When chance of death doing nothing is for certain then balloon shielding is a good move as you do have a chance of surviving if you do it. Never can tell if lag or bad aim might come into play suddenly and then those shots are hitting balloon and not hull.

Wund, it depends on if the Galleon pilot is an actual pilot and not an engineer without options other than to turret. Even if a ship is unmarked, I can track it and then it comes down to a best guess as to the enemy's position under my ship. Which means, goomba time. So yeah you can't see, but vet pilots can predict paths and possible counters for something under them. There is only so many angles an attacker can approach a Galleon from underneath to get positioning. Unless they come from a cover advantage one chute can turn that attack around. Cover advantage say on maps like Rumble, yeah Galleon has very few options.

[-Mad Maverick-]

wait do my eyes decieve me? yet another player asking for agile dogfight like combat?

[redria]

wait do my eyes decieve me? yet another player asking for agile dogfight like combat?

Your eyes do deceive you. They asked for the "above is better" meta to be scaled back, much different from dogfighting.

Right now with hades and artemis seeing so much use, being above is almost always advantageous. You get out of their arcs and keep your own.
I think a big thing you are seeing is that it is difficult to break engagements, meaning that when you start losing an engagement it is difficult to break away and refresh. Squids are (logically) the best at this, being able to squirt away pretty easily.

It is easiest to break engagements with a disabling build, as you can break something important and use that time to gain position and escape. It would be interesting to see some light guns or a tool that support being below an enemy in the way that other guns support being above an enemy.

[Richard LeMoon]

I think adjustments to some maps to give you things to hide under would be a better option. And a light gun that could shoot up well. Maybe some sort of airburst grenade launcher. Minimal horizontal movement (like the Merc), very high arc upwards, 0 arc downwards, proximity explosive (like small mines). Can fall back on your own ship if you are not careful. Minor piercing and explosive damage with a low chance of setting fires. If you could stay under a ship long enough, you could eventually break their armor and kill the hull. Main use as support/ambush/distraction gun.

[Wundsalz]

I want a cave map to smash these max-height idlers into the ceiling!

[redria]

I want a cave map to smash these max-height idlers into the ceiling!

We all do Wundsalz. We all do. I wonder how many threads have been made specifically asking for a cave map.